Erdogan wants people to call Turkey "Türkiye" even in English and other languages
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  Erdogan wants people to call Turkey "Türkiye" even in English and other languages
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Author Topic: Erdogan wants people to call Turkey "Türkiye" even in English and other languages  (Read 2494 times)
ingemann
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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2022, 05:51:56 PM »


The main difference is that the Czech Republic is a terrible name because it makes it impossible to talk about the pre-1992 history of the country without using Bohemia or Western Czechoslovakia instead. The adopting of the informal Czechia makes it possible to talk about historical Czech states without seeing it the context of a semi-German identity.
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ingemann
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« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2022, 05:53:39 PM »

As for the name change to Tyrkije (y can be used instead of ü and j can be used a consonant version of y).

Not in Turkish! That would be read as [tjɾkiʒe] or something which isn't even a valid sequence of sounds in Turkish. Or in the vast majority of the word's languages, including English, though you could maybe anglicize it to [tjɚkiʒeɪ] "tjerk-eezhay" or something, which would be much further away from the Turkish pronunciation than an anglicized Türkiye or the original English Turkey.

We could also use Tuerkeuë instead, doesn't it look beautiful?
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palandio
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2022, 02:23:50 PM »

Maybe the following is a slightly German-centric take on the topic of Czech Republic/Czechia, but whatever.

In the German language the term Böhmen (Bohemia) had lost most of its ethnic connotation long before 1900. Hence to denote the land/state of the Czechs the terms Tschechien and Tschechei came into being. I'm not old enough to say which of the two terms can claim more historic legitimacy. What I can say is that the older generations living in Germany right now tended to use Tschechei to refer to the Western part of Czechoslovakia. Unfortunately Tschechei reminds the Czechs of the Nazi usage of the term, particularly in "Erledigung der Rest-Tschechei" ("Finishing off" the Czech rump-state* in 1939). Additionally the -ei ending, which is rarer than the standard -ien, puts the ethnicity at the center and doesn't necessarily refer to a consistently defined territory or administrative unit **. I don't know exactly, but that could play a role, too. In 1994 for whatever reason Czechia decided to officially call itself Czech Republic and translations of that in all languages (Tschechische Republik in German), only to notice that Germans of course continued to colloquially call it by the unloved name Tschechei. Therefore German politics and media and even official representatives of Czechia in Germany reintroduced the term Tschechien that had already occurred at the beginning of the 20th century, but fallen out of use in the meantime. The general introduction of Czechia and equivalents in other languages in my opinion at least partially comes from the need to officialize the German language situation.

* Czechoslovakia had already been forced to cede the Sudetenland to Germany in 1938
** The contemporary examples for the -ei ending are Slowakei, Mongolei, Lombardei, Walachei, Kabylei, Mandschurei and of course most prominently Türkei, I wonder if Erdogan wants to change that, too.

In my opinion a case like that of Czechia preferring Tschechien over Tschechei is completely ok. Both are German words. On the other trying to impose forms onto other languages that are alien to their phonology is a thing that only joke countries or countries ruled by joke people do. I have not yet encountered a single counterexample.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2022, 08:27:36 AM »

To be fair, it would be really cool if people started calling every country by how it’s called domestically.

“Translations” don’t exist for people’s names when they travel, a João doesn’t become a John just because they’re visiting an English country because it sounds condescending or disrespectful. Same logic should be applied to country names. Not only Türkiye, but also Россия; Brasil; 日本; Magyarország; España; ایران; Ελλάδα; Suid-Afrika or iNingizimu Afrika; etc
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2022, 09:07:32 AM »

Well, no, it wouldn't as most people wouldn't be able to pronounce a thing even half correctly. And the result would not be more open-mindedness and interest in other countries and cultures but the exact opposite.

I'm reminded at this point that traditional English names for large cities in Germany are usually closer to the actual German pronunciations of those cities than what overcompensating native English speakers tend to guess from the German names - there are few things quite as embarrassing than a dreadful attempt to render 'Köln' when 'Cologne' is sitting right there and is actually decently close to the actual German pronunciation. Or, of course, that traditional English names for some of the larger cities in Northern Italy are closer to what those cities are called in the local dialects than what they're officially called in Italian...
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2022, 05:04:35 PM »

Alright fine we'll call Erdogan's country Türkiye if he says so.  But the bird is also being renamed Türkiye.

Looks like Turkish Airlines took your advice:

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vileplume
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2022, 01:43:21 PM »
« Edited: July 01, 2022, 01:47:27 PM by vileplume »

Although Swaziland -> Eswatini has gained ground so much that Wikipedia now uses the latter as the primary name.

Why? You don't call Istanbul Constantinople anymore.

Those are both different words from the previous, not less-familiar and less-phonetically-intuitive versions of the same word. Heck, in Eswatini's case, it's arguably easier to read and pronounce than Swaziland. Your parallels make no sense.

You think so? I think “Swaziland” is remarkably intuitive to read and pronounce. But that’s probably because “land” is an English word to begin with.

The "land" part is fairly straightforward, sure, but "swazi" strikes me as a rather disharmonious combination of phonemes, and the two pieces don't mesh well together at all. "Eswatini" rolls off the tongue much more naturally to me. Maybe I'm thinking of it more from the perspective of a Romance language speaker than an English one though.

As someone who has English as a first language, 'Swaziland' is a lot more natural to pronounce than 'Eswatini'. The transition from -e to -sw is a pretty awkward one (no English words have these three letters at the start). Awkwardness of the pronunciation will vary considerably depending on the exact 'e' sound a language uses though.
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Ethelberth
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2022, 07:50:01 AM »

Türkiye has combination of letters quite unique. Languages with umlaut letters, German, Hungarian and Estonian, use <j> for [j]. In Scandinavian languages and Finnish  its <y>. In French and Dutch <u>. Other languages (that would use Latin alphabet) do not have such a phoneme. So it is funny to ask Spanish speakers to write a word totally incomprehendable for them.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2022, 11:20:17 AM »


...no?? Huh

u is [y]
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Sol
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2022, 11:48:17 AM »

Turkish uses <y> for [j] because it's already using <j> for [ʒ]. The romanization of postalveolars in Turkish is very odd; it uses <ç c ş j> for [t͡ʃ  d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ], which is a bit odd and inconsistent and produces the very unintuitive use of <c>. Of course, the oddness makes sense when you remember that the Turkish language reformers were Francophiles, which explains the use of <ç> and <j> for [ʒ].


In fairness I think he maybe switched to discussing [y], because he references Scandinavia and Finland before where [y] is <y>.
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Ethelberth
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2022, 12:06:24 PM »

Yeah, ,[y] has three orthographic traditions,<u>,<ü>,<y>
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super6646
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2022, 02:08:56 PM »


I was stunned when all these journalists started saying “key-v” instead of “key-ev” during the war in Ukraine. Never heard it pronounced that way until then (though I knew the spelling was kyiv).
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« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2022, 12:44:49 PM »

Erdowahn moaning about his country being named after tasty poultry?
What am I to say? I'm named for American fast food...
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2022, 12:59:50 PM »

Irrespective of what one thinks of Erdogan, this is a hard request to oblige. I'm not typing umlauts. Maybe I'll do Turkiye if I get in the habit, but that's without umlauts.
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Conservatopia
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« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2022, 11:23:48 AM »

Erdowahn moaning about his country being named after tasty poultry?
What am I to say? I'm named for American fast food...

Hello Wendy.
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Damocles
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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2022, 11:48:15 AM »

Turkey is a cool country governed by clowns.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2022, 02:47:01 PM »

To be fair, it would be really cool if people started calling every country by how it’s called domestically.

Not all countries have a single native name though as more than one language is spoken there. Should Ireland be Ireland (English) or Éire (Irish)? Should Finland be Suomi (Finnish) or Finland (Swedish)? Should Switzerland be Schweiz (German), Suisse (French), Svizzera (Italian)? 
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2022, 02:23:33 AM »
« Edited: July 08, 2022, 02:53:52 AM by Southern Delegate and Atlasian AG Punxsutawney Phil »

To be fair, it would be really cool if people started calling every country by how it’s called domestically.

Not all countries have a single native name though as more than one language is spoken there. Should Ireland be Ireland (English) or Éire (Irish)? Should Finland be Suomi (Finnish) or Finland (Swedish)? Should Switzerland be Schweiz (German), Suisse (French), Svizzera (Italian)?  
Exonyms are perfectly acceptable, and are far from inherently worse. Difference in what places are called across languages is a reflection of how diverse we are as a species.
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GALeftist
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« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2022, 12:00:18 PM »

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Hades
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« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2022, 12:14:12 PM »

Should Switzerland be Schweiz (German), Suisse (French), Svizzera (Italian)? 

Confoederatio Helvetica
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Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist
darthpi
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« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2022, 12:49:07 PM »

Alright fine we'll call Erdogan's country Türkiye if he says so.  But the bird is also being renamed Türkiye.

Looks like Turkish Airlines took your advice:



This has strong "Tyson Homosexual" vibes

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sport-olympics/london-2012-olympics-sprinter-referred-to-as-tyson-homosexual-because-of-website-s-ban-on-word-gay-8015664.html
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