How can we best undermine dictatorships?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 07:49:10 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Political Debate (Moderator: Torie)
  How can we best undermine dictatorships?
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: How can we best undermine dictatorships?  (Read 980 times)
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,426
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: February 12, 2022, 02:23:00 AM »

Huh
Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,142
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2022, 02:35:10 AM »

We best undermine dictatorships by preserving and, when possible, building an ever stronger functional democracy. So our very existence may serve as a model, and we might furnish the world with an example.
Logged
Blue3
Starwatcher
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,035
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2022, 03:23:47 AM »

We best undermine dictatorships by preserving and, when possible, building an ever stronger functional democracy. So our very existence may serve as a model, and we might furnish the world with an example.
In addition, protecting rights to freedom of belief, freedom of expression, etc. and integrating any dictatorships into the "free world" so their leaders and their people are exposed to different ideas and the nonviolent debate/exchange of ideas.

Also, many have forgotten that the original purpose behind public education was to create an informed voting citizenry. Not to get people ready for factory jobs, or STEM jobs, or whatever. To have informed voters, in order to have a functioning democracy.
Logged
FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,284
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2022, 12:36:17 PM »

If the alternative is their replacement with failed states, oligarchies, or semi-permanent occupations, then I'm not sure it's a worthwhile goal.

The "color revolution" phenomenon had to be short-lived, as its pacing ensured that autocratic governments had numerous chances to learn from their colleagues' mistakes. "Civil society" promotion appears to be a flimsy and easily-countered policy. Meanwhile, the old theory of economic liberalization as a prerequisite for both economic growth and democratization appears to have been undermined in multiple ways by China. Not only does it appear seemingly disproven, but China's current economic policies seem to geared to maintain, rather than move past, China's current place in the global supply chain. Given China's economic size, the potential consequence of this orientation is that other countries may not have the chance to make further economic or political jumps.

The likeliest effective long-term plays would be to reinforce global economic supremacy by democracies (which would be difficult, potentially bloody, and has bad optics vis-a-vis the narrative of imperialism), and to make fossil fuels held in the Middle East and Eurasia obsolete through the development of alternative energy. The latter would both undermine non-democratic governments at home while deflating their foreign policy potential.

Given recent events, it appears that the importance of primary producers (of, say, sources of energy like petroleum and LNG) has been reinforced, rather than weakened. This is bad news for the would-be democrats of post-communist Eurasia and the Greater Middle East, and for the democracies of Western and Central Europe. On the upside, the United States has a new advantage in this area, and this schema subjects China to potential constraints.

Two other important factors to discuss are (1) the apparent de-democratization of parts of the allegedly free world; and (2) the apparent performance failures of leading nations on topics linked to COVID-19. Put bluntly, as the West declines in influence and importance, an "Indian model" would be a hard sell to the developing world even without China as a potential point of comparison.
Logged
RINO Tom
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,002
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.45, S: -0.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2022, 11:56:45 PM »

Seriously?  Discredit extremists of all nature via stable societies.  Wokeism is dangerous, period.  Extreme nationalism is dangerous, period.  Have strong social communities, families, workplace cultures, etc. that give people reasons to not want to look to extremists for answers to their issues they have with the world.
Logged
Blue3
Starwatcher
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,035
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2022, 08:40:05 PM »

Seriously?  Discredit extremists of all nature via stable societies.  Wokeism is dangerous, period.  Extreme nationalism is dangerous, period.  Have strong social communities, families, workplace cultures, etc. that give people reasons to not want to look to extremists for answers to their issues they have with the world.
Define dangerous "wokeism".
Logged
RINO Tom
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,002
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.45, S: -0.52

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2022, 10:19:54 PM »

Seriously?  Discredit extremists of all nature via stable societies.  Wokeism is dangerous, period.  Extreme nationalism is dangerous, period.  Have strong social communities, families, workplace cultures, etc. that give people reasons to not want to look to extremists for answers to their issues they have with the world.
Define dangerous "wokeism".

Social Justice largely does not follow any structural integrity.  It is a constantly moving goalpost with a consensus simply determined by the majority opinions of its most influential members.  A basic tenant of the outrage that came about due to the riots and looting after George Floyd's death was not that we had a system in severe need of reform and that activists were going to mobilize to work within the system to sway public opinion and change society through the existing legal process (as the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement did) ... it was the rather loud belief that the system was so broken that we could reasonably excuse the burning of innocent people's businesses in downtowns because, what ... "enough was enough"?  That's horrifyingly knee-jerk and emotionally driven, and it sets the precedent that anarchy and solving one wrong with another wrong is okay, as long as you are of the "correct" opinion.  And who is to say what is "correct"?  Not a constitution of any kind or a religious text or some guiding intellectual philosophy ... a literal, intangible "blob" of ever-shifting public opinion.  It's tyranny of the majority, except polls indicate they're not even a majority!  The fact that people are getting cancelled for things they said a decade ago is, indeed, scary, and it's entirely driven by a mob mentality.

None of this is to say it is necessarily more dangerous than extreme nationalism or any other extremist ideology, but that is the point.  When people turn to extremist ideologies, they craft a narrative where they are SO correct and the "system" is SO broken, that the ends justify the means to such an extent that they're essentially given a blank slate.  An incredibly rude, selfish and societally unproductive SJW is still a better person than a polite Trump voter?  That is a deranged way of thinking, and it's extremely prevalent today.  Again, extremism is inherently dangerous, as it gives a blank-check-messiah complex to the group in question.  When you believe so deeply in your "cause" to the extent where you are practically dehumanizing your opposition, you're capable of bending just about any rule or norm.  If others don't find that scary, well, I guess I am in the minority and will simply have to ride out the storm ... but what we are seeing now is NOT in the same tradition as Martin Luther King or early gay rights activists, just as today's extreme nationalists are NOT in the mold of Calvin Coolidge's 1920s Republicans, even if coincidental similarities in policy can be dug up when convenient.  The difference is the extremism in spirit, even though it's also in letter.

Although biased, I really like this channel and think this video is actually a very good explanation of why the Social Justice movement has gone off the rails ... it's not descended from basic progressivism or activism, it is literally looking to "deconstruct" society itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J10_2natxys&t=1453s
Logged
Sub Jero
Rookie
**
Posts: 126
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2022, 09:01:51 AM »

By supporting them
Logged
Senator Incitatus
AMB1996
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,472
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: 5.74

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2022, 01:43:08 PM »

Bigger dictatorship in another country.
Logged
Senator Incitatus
AMB1996
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,472
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.06, S: 5.74

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2022, 09:47:45 PM »

Seriously?  Discredit extremists of all nature via stable societies. ...

I have a great idea for a regime type that discredits extremists and produces a stable society.
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,426
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 08:48:02 PM »
« Edited: May 18, 2022, 08:52:34 PM by All Along The Watchtower »

Coming back to this thread, since I was just thinking about how a lot of people advocating for radical change are too "macro" in terms of who they oppose. ie., for most people in most places, it's far more revolutionary in a concrete sense---with far more bearing on everyday life---to oust the local administrator, regional governor, or petty tyrant sheriff than it is to try to overthrow the Emperor.

Or, as CrabCake put it in this thread:

In general (obviously not always, don't @ me with counterexamples), common people have far more to fear from local despots rather than supposed all-powerful tyrants who, for all their flaws, have to at least govern taking everybody into account.
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,322
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 09:38:25 PM »

https://www.cia.gov/careers/jobs/
Logged
Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself
omegascarlet
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,969


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 11:48:41 PM »

OP said "undermine", not "create".
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,322
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2022, 12:09:25 AM »


In order to undermine them you have to first create them. Clearly you aren't CIA material.
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 07:39:59 AM »

Seriously?  Discredit extremists of all nature via stable societies.  Wokeism is dangerous, period.  Extreme nationalism is dangerous, period.  Have strong social communities, families, workplace cultures, etc. that give people reasons to not want to look to extremists for answers to their issues they have with the world.
Define dangerous "wokeism".

Social Justice largely does not follow any structural integrity.  It is a constantly moving goalpost with a consensus simply determined by the majority opinions of its most influential members.  A basic tenant of the outrage that came about due to the riots and looting after George Floyd's death was not that we had a system in severe need of reform and that activists were going to mobilize to work within the system to sway public opinion and change society through the existing legal process (as the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement did) ... it was the rather loud belief that the system was so broken that we could reasonably excuse the burning of innocent people's businesses in downtowns because, what ... "enough was enough"?  That's horrifyingly knee-jerk and emotionally driven, and it sets the precedent that anarchy and solving one wrong with another wrong is okay, as long as you are of the "correct" opinion.  And who is to say what is "correct"?  Not a constitution of any kind or a religious text or some guiding intellectual philosophy ... a literal, intangible "blob" of ever-shifting public opinion.  It's tyranny of the majority, except polls indicate they're not even a majority!  The fact that people are getting cancelled for things they said a decade ago is, indeed, scary, and it's entirely driven by a mob mentality.

None of this is to say it is necessarily more dangerous than extreme nationalism or any other extremist ideology, but that is the point.  When people turn to extremist ideologies, they craft a narrative where they are SO correct and the "system" is SO broken, that the ends justify the means to such an extent that they're essentially given a blank slate.  An incredibly rude, selfish and societally unproductive SJW is still a better person than a polite Trump voter?  That is a deranged way of thinking, and it's extremely prevalent today.  Again, extremism is inherently dangerous, as it gives a blank-check-messiah complex to the group in question.  When you believe so deeply in your "cause" to the extent where you are practically dehumanizing your opposition, you're capable of bending just about any rule or norm.  If others don't find that scary, well, I guess I am in the minority and will simply have to ride out the storm ... but what we are seeing now is NOT in the same tradition as Martin Luther King or early gay rights activists, just as today's extreme nationalists are NOT in the mold of Calvin Coolidge's 1920s Republicans, even if coincidental similarities in policy can be dug up when convenient.  The difference is the extremism in spirit, even though it's also in letter.

Although biased, I really like this channel and think this video is actually a very good explanation of why the Social Justice movement has gone off the rails ... it's not descended from basic progressivism or activism, it is literally looking to "deconstruct" society itself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J10_2natxys&t=1453s

Calling people child murderers, child molesters, and that you now “own them”. How do we respond to that? Beyond just telling the people who call you those names that you’re going to protect yourself by any means necessary? FWIW, I still think that Rittenhouse should’ve gotten probation for leaving the state with a gun that he wasn’t supposed to have but I now know that the jury was right.

If we want to get back to the original thread at hand, here’s some  homework. The homework is that whoever on here talks and acts like they actually and literally hate other people or anybody else on here, well, we have to figure out a way to deal with them without banning them. That is essentially how are you stop Democratic backslide. If it’s even possible.
Logged
All Along The Watchtower
Progressive Realist
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,426
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2022, 02:37:25 PM »


Yeah, he won’t in fact “commit to this program.”
Logged
brucejoel99
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,459
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -3.30

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2022, 04:43:45 PM »

I miss the days when we could just destroy any dictatorship that wasn't being nice with their oil & install a dictatorship anywhere that had the audacity to elect a socialist government Tongue
Logged
Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
HockeyDude
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,376
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2022, 08:13:14 PM »

Vote BLUE Purple heart Purple heart Purple heart *hugs*
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.057 seconds with 12 queries.