Ukraine MegaThread

[HisGrace]

Look, we're only left with bad options here. Usually Ukraine should be defended with massive forces because Russia is waging an attack on a sovereign country that's based on lies and only done for the ego of a tyrant, who seeks to overturn defeat in the Cold War. The problem, however, is that once the US or NATO as a whole gets involved, we're talking about War War III, which would inevitably result into a nuclear war that causes hundreds of millions lives and makes an entire continent inhabitable for thousands of years. Unfortunately, Russia isn't some small s-hole country we can just overwhelm with force and kick them out of other countries, as it was the case when Saddam attacked Kuwait in 1991.

The Western alliance and basically all other free nations should impose crippling sanctions on Russia and completely bankrupt their economy, in combination with cyber attacks and other actions that aim to destabilize Putin's regime. In the long run, regime change in Russia without a military confrontation should be the final goal.

At very least, an intervention by NATO would be a high-risk gamble because it would require Putin to quit or withdraw. I don't think he's this rational and wouldn't bother risking another world war.

I think it was mistake Ukraine wasn't admitted to NATO back in 2008, and I fault Merkel for essentially blocking it out of false premises over Putin. She and others were naive about Russia and Ukraine is now paying the price. Sadly.

The point is not if we should defend Ukraine, but if we should announce that we will not.

Bolded has been the problem through this whole thing as I have said before. Everyone knows there is no chance Biden is going to go in here. Putin is not crazy, he's doing this specifically because he knows there's no chance anyone is going to do anything to stop it.

[It’s so Joever]

Look, we're only left with bad options here. Usually Ukraine should be defended with massive forces because Russia is waging an attack on a sovereign country that's based on lies and only done for the ego of a tyrant, who seeks to overturn defeat in the Cold War. The problem, however, is that once the US or NATO as a whole gets involved, we're talking about War War III, which would inevitably result into a nuclear war that causes hundreds of millions lives and makes an entire continent inhabitable for thousands of years. Unfortunately, Russia isn't some small s-hole country we can just overwhelm with force and kick them out of other countries, as it was the case when Saddam attacked Kuwait in 1991.

The Western alliance and basically all other free nations should impose crippling sanctions on Russia and completely bankrupt their economy, in combination with cyber attacks and other actions that aim to destabilize Putin's regime. In the long run, regime change in Russia without a military confrontation should be the final goal.

At very least, an intervention by NATO would be a high-risk gamble because it would require Putin to quit or withdraw. I don't think he's this rational and wouldn't bother risking another world war.

I think it was mistake Ukraine wasn't admitted to NATO back in 2008, and I fault Merkel for essentially blocking it out of false premises over Putin. She and others were naive about Russia and Ukraine is now paying the price. Sadly.

The point is not if we should defend Ukraine, but if we should announce that we will not.

Bolded has been the problem through this whole thing as I have said before. Everyone knows there is no chance Biden is going to go in here. Putin is not crazy, he's doing this specifically because he knows there's no chance anyone is going to do anything to stop it.

Biden’s clear stance on this when he could have kept it ambiguous is one of the biggest blunders in foreign policy in years. While I never did buy the whole Biden Afghanistan narrative (he was operating on faulty intel) this is different. It’s obvious strategy and Biden didn’t use it. I am so strongly disappointed and this is probably the first major issue I truly fault Biden for.

[President Johnson]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

[BG-NY]

The overwhelming feeling I’m getting today from Trumpers I know is that Putin is evil, and the invasion is an affront to democracy and the world.

It seems like, from my limited worldview at this time, that Donald Trump’s encouragement and admiration of Putin is maybe backfiring somewhat.

I’m seeing the opposite. I’m also seeing people who voted for Brandon saying they’re happy the US is staying out of this. It’s not our problem.

Hitler declared war on the United States. Kind of a massive difference.

[BG-NY]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

[DrScholl]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

[BG-NY]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

[7,052,770]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just doing this absent-mindedly, but you've got to cut this sh**t out.

[HisGrace]

I've been kicking this around in my head and have alluded to it before, but since we have a megathread I'll just ask, what impact do you think our withdrawal from Afghanistan had on Russia's decision here? I'm aware these things take time to plan, but Russia has likely had an invasion plan for Ukraine ready to go for a while, just as the United States has for various countries.

As I've said before, if we weren't willing to stay engaged in Afghanistan then there's a 0% chance we were going to get involved in Ukraine, where we hadn't been invested for 20 years and there was no connection to any attack on the United States. Putin's not an idiot, he knows that. There has to be a reason he waited until now to do this instead of doing it last year, two years ago, or five years ago. Same deal with China now starting sabre rattling with Taiwan. If you don't think it's Afghanistan then there has to be another reason this is specifically happening now when it wasn't earlier and I can't think of one.

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/CarterCenter/status/1496893384329502724

[jojoju1998]

I've been kicking this around in my head and have alluded to it before, but since we have a megathread I'll just ask, what impact do you think our withdrawal from Afghanistan had on Russia's decision here? I'm aware these things take time to plan, but Russia has likely had an invasion plan for Ukraine ready to go for a while, just as the United States has for various countries.

As I've said before, if we weren't willing to stay engaged in Afghanistan then there's a 0% chance we were going to get involved in Ukraine, where we hadn't been invested for 20 years and there was no connection to any attack on the United States. Putin's not an idiot, he knows that. There has to be a reason he waited until now to do this instead of doing it last year, two years ago, or five years ago. Same deal with China now starting sabre rattling with Taiwan. If you don't think it's Afghanistan then there has to be another reason this is specifically happening now when it wasn't earlier and I can't think of one.

Are you saying that Putin and Xi saw the Afghatanistan Withdrawl as a sign of weakness ?

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1496913185093439488

[It’s so Joever]

I've been kicking this around in my head and have alluded to it before, but since we have a megathread I'll just ask, what impact do you think our withdrawal from Afghanistan had on Russia's decision here? I'm aware these things take time to plan, but Russia has likely had an invasion plan for Ukraine ready to go for a while, just as the United States has for various countries.

As I've said before, if we weren't willing to stay engaged in Afghanistan then there's a 0% chance we were going to get involved in Ukraine, where we hadn't been invested for 20 years and there was no connection to any attack on the United States. Putin's not an idiot, he knows that. There has to be a reason he waited until now to do this instead of doing it last year, two years ago, or five years ago. Same deal with China now starting sabre rattling with Taiwan. If you don't think it's Afghanistan then there has to be another reason this is specifically happening now when it wasn't earlier and I can't think of one.

Xi has been doing that with Taiwan for years now.

[BG-NY]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just doing this absent-mindedly, but you've got to cut this sh**t out.

It actually is just a slip of the tongue. Unlike most America Firsters I’m not into the tankie nonsense. I think any invasion is wrong — I just don’t think it’s our obligation to act. Russia sucks.

[DaleCooper]

I've been kicking this around in my head and have alluded to it before, but since we have a megathread I'll just ask, what impact do you think our withdrawal from Afghanistan had on Russia's decision here? I'm aware these things take time to plan, but Russia has likely had an invasion plan for Ukraine ready to go for a while, just as the United States has for various countries.

As I've said before, if we weren't willing to stay engaged in Afghanistan then there's a 0% chance we were going to get involved in Ukraine, where we hadn't been invested for 20 years and there was no connection to any attack on the United States. Putin's not an idiot, he knows that. There has to be a reason he waited until now to do this instead of doing it last year, two years ago, or five years ago. Same deal with China now starting sabre rattling with Taiwan. If you don't think it's Afghanistan then there has to be another reason this is specifically happening now when it wasn't earlier and I can't think of one.

I think there was at least some of a connection. Keep in mind, the United States didn't just leave Afghanistan, it gave up and didn't even retaliate other than bomb some car at random when 13 of our own people were killed. If the we're willing to surrender to the Taliban, then we're certainly going to let Russia do its thing.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Hacker changes Phoenix interstate sign to say "F*** Putin".

(Includes picture, so may be NSFW depending on your place of employment.)

[Boobs]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614


Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

No one believes you’ll be old enough to vote by then.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

1) We should not support lethal aid making us complicit in this conflict. We have nothing to do with it. It's not our problem.

Lethal aid has always ended with the US being pulled into the conflict.

2) The push to bring over a ton of refugees will likely go into full gear. The Dems want it for votes, and the GOP is much too silly and lacks self preservation to do anything about it

Its a democrats wildest dream

I guess the following months will show how right (and wrong) you were.
It's true American leaders have (mostly unwittingly) encouraged a certain level of adversity from Russia with the way they've behaved, but this is uncharted territory.
Time will tell what the trajectory of this conflict is.

[Inmate Trump]

It seems as though Trump’s position of offering support and comfort to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is not the popular view.

Will he face any public backlash?

[Lord Halifax]

Bring Finland and Moldova into NATO, as soon as possible. Bring Sweden and Ukraine too if possible, and if Ukraine still exists as a nation. All NATO countries do coordinated heavy sanctions on Russia. An entire continent should do everything it can outside of warfare to screw Russia over for multiple years. Hopefully the citizens get tired of it and hit a point where they throw Putin's government out.

Moldova can't join NATO as neutrality is written into its constitution. It should join the EU, though.

They can amend it if they feel the threat. The real problem is they have territorial disputes with Transnistria and NATO cannot accept countries with territorial disputes.

They could ask Ukraine if they are willing to swap Transniestria with the small parts of the Ukrainian part of Bessarabia that still have an ethnically Romanian majority or large plurality (and potentially also the Bulgarian majority ones, as they might as well be a minority in Moldova, and those are bigger). It would of course be a land swap that very much took place "on paper" in the current situation with regards to Transniestria, but NATO advancing eastwards would be in the long term interest of the anti-Russian Ukrainian political elite, so they might be willing to accept it.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

The overwhelming feeling I’m getting today from Trumpers I know is that Putin is evil, and the invasion is an affront to democracy and the world.

It seems like, from my limited worldview at this time, that Donald Trump’s encouragement and admiration of Putin is maybe backfiring somewhat.

I’m seeing the opposite. I’m also seeing people who voted for Brandon saying they’re happy the US is staying out of this. It’s not our problem.

Hitler declared war on the United States. Kind of a massive difference.

So we shouldn't have joined WWII to stop hitler if he hadn't declared war on us?

[BlueSwan]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614

Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just doing this absent-mindedly, but you've got to cut this sh**t out.

It actually is just a slip of the tongue. Unlike most America Firsters I’m not into the tankie nonsense. I think any invasion is wrong — I just don’t think it’s our obligation to act. Russia sucks.

He's gonna provide lethal aid making American tax payer money go towards killing Russians over a border dispute thousands of miles away

All the while letting the Latin America countries have their way with our border...have you lost your damn mind

There is an argument to be made that Trump is too soft and we need a more firm nationalist

Go away, fascist.

[Sir Mohamed]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614

Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just doing this absent-mindedly, but you've got to cut this sh**t out.

It actually is just a slip of the tongue. Unlike most America Firsters I’m not into the tankie nonsense. I think any invasion is wrong — I just don’t think it’s our obligation to act. Russia sucks.

He's gonna provide lethal aid making American tax payer money go towards killing Russians over a border dispute thousands of miles away

All the while letting the Latin America countries have their way with our border...have you lost your damn mind

There is an argument to be made that Trump is too soft and we need a more firm nationalist

Go away, fascist.

User is already banned, according to YE.

[BlueSwan]

Since the thread about Trump's response was merged, I'm posting this here. This is how a former president responses:

https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1496947181214916614

Dubya also put out a statement:

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1496840897257951242

Every time Obama opens his mouth I regret voting for, volunteering for, and donating to him in 2008.

On the other hand I don’t regret voting against Bush in 04.

Obama is completely horrible for condemning an attack on a sovereign nation.

I have a feeling if Russia invaded the United States to overthrow Biden that you'd be all for it. SMH.

You do realize that because Biden isn’t intervening in the Ukraine I’m considering voting for him in 2024, right? I support a lot of his foreign policy.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are just doing this absent-mindedly, but you've got to cut this sh**t out.

It actually is just a slip of the tongue. Unlike most America Firsters I’m not into the tankie nonsense. I think any invasion is wrong — I just don’t think it’s our obligation to act. Russia sucks.

He's gonna provide lethal aid making American tax payer money go towards killing Russians over a border dispute thousands of miles away

All the while letting the Latin America countries have their way with our border...have you lost your damn mind

There is an argument to be made that Trump is too soft and we need a more firm nationalist

Go away, fascist.

User is already banned, according to YE.

Good call, if so!

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

I've been kicking this around in my head and have alluded to it before, but since we have a megathread I'll just ask, what impact do you think our withdrawal from Afghanistan had on Russia's decision here? I'm aware these things take time to plan, but Russia has likely had an invasion plan for Ukraine ready to go for a while, just as the United States has for various countries.

As I've said before, if we weren't willing to stay engaged in Afghanistan then there's a 0% chance we were going to get involved in Ukraine, where we hadn't been invested for 20 years and there was no connection to any attack on the United States. Putin's not an idiot, he knows that. There has to be a reason he waited until now to do this instead of doing it last year, two years ago, or five years ago. Same deal with China now starting sabre rattling with Taiwan. If you don't think it's Afghanistan then there has to be another reason this is specifically happening now when it wasn't earlier and I can't think of one.

Absolutely none

The Russians and Americans and Chinese all know that avoiding conventional confrontation between nuclear powers in the cornerstone of nuclear war prevention policy. There was never a question of NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine. Aside from which, the groundwork for this invasion was being laid years in advance, with the creation of proxy breakaway states in Ukraine by Russia. Donetsk and Luhansk separatists are a distinct minority of the population and the breakaway republics are largely secured by ununiformed Russian ‘volunteers’, the Minsk accords that Putin likes to talk about, despite being overwhelmingly favorable to the Russian proxies, have been ignored by the Russian proxies, who have periodic attacks on Ukrainian positions trying to bait a response to justify an official Russian military intervention. The entire existence of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics are a Russian project to to give justification to an invasion and that project started about 5 to 6 years ago. Aside from which, the amount of planning and groundwork that goes into a major modern military action starts well before the troop buildup actually begins. Russia didn’t decide to invade one day this summer, this has been years in the making.

Anyway the Afghan withdrawal would have actually complicated, not emboldened, a Russian move into Ukraine if they thought western military resistance was in the cards, as it gives the United States significantly more freedom of action without it’s own, significantly logically more complicated occupation to worry about.

As a side note, we should talk a bit about the nationality issue, until the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian was the exclusive language of education and media in Ukraine. As a result, there is a large population of Ukrainians for whom Russian is the sole or primary language. This does not make those people Russians nor does this imply a sympathy towards the Russian Federation or desire for Russian annexation. There is also, separately, a community of Russians living in Ukraine, some percentage of these may support Russians annexation, but you’d be hard pressed to find anywhere that is majority opinion (leaving aside Crimea, which is essentially it’s own thing bolted onto Ukraine in the Soviet era). If you actually listen to Putin’s statements for internal consumption rather than the word salad he spits out to the international community, it’s pure blood and soil Nazi stuff. Ukrainians and Belorussians are fake nationalities invented by the west which must be reunited with the other Russians by force if necessary. Not terribly different from how Serb nationalists talk about Croats and Bosnians. This is what Russian means by the nationality issue.