Has COVID brought out the authoritarian streak in Democrats?

[Schiff for Senate]

New polling showing ~45% of Democrats support forcing people into internment camps, so yes, I'd say so.

??

Rassy – 1/13/22
Fine the unvaccinated – 34% of the general public "strongly" or "somewhat" support (including 55% of Democrats)
Require the unvaccinated to remain confined to their homes at all times – 34% (59%)
Require the unvaccinated temporarily live in designated facilities or locations – 26% (45%)
Fine or imprison anyone who questions the efficacy of the existing vaccines – 27% (48%)
Require the unvaccinated to use a tracking app or wearable device to ensure they are socially distancing – 28% (47%)
Take their kids away – 16% (29%)

It's not really about the vaccine mandates themselves, and it's definitely not about "not being apple [sic] to go to Applebee's for two weeks." Roughly half of the people who still self-identify as Democrats (a shrinking number, thank god) support incredibly harsh (and illegal) punishment against anyone who’s chosen not to get vaccinated — maybe "authoritarian" is a buzzword, but there is a concerning authoritarian streak that's emerged among Democrats (not their politicians, but their voters).

The last one goes way too far; fourth violates 1st Amendment but I suppose it's fine since it is a threat in a way to security. Fifth one seems extreme but really it's fine. First one is perfectly fine, second one a little harsh, third one goes too far.

[darklordoftech]

Considering that Democrats picked the author of the civil forfeiture act as their nominee for President before COVID became an issue, I wouldn’t say COVID is what brought out their authoritarian streak.

[Antonio the Sixth]

To some extent, yes, but by and large it's brought up the extreme shortsighted individualism of a vast majority of Americans (which there was plenty of evidence for before, but had never been laid out in such stark contrast). I'm one of the people who thinks many European countries have gone and are going too far with restrictions, but the tenor of discourse in the US (and on this forum) is so far slanted in the other direction that it becomes pointless to even try making a nuanced point, as I've found out twice recently.

This "shortsighted individualism" is in the DNA of our country, and it is only praised in past Americans (like the Founders) with rose-tinted hindsight glasses.  For better or worse, we don't like our liberties restricted for a "common good" that some expert (be he/she in the field of medicine, economics, politics or whatever else) has decreed to us.  It seemed to be a longstanding consensus in the US that we would take the good with the bad in that, at least knowing that we have the safeguards in place to stop excessive government control over our daily lives.  "Where at least I know I'm free" and all that stuff.  Again, for better or for worse, Democrats have effectively left Republicans and (most) independents at the altar on this...

If you're trying to say that Democrats have picked the losing side electorally, you're probably right, but if we're discussing this from a normative standpoint, I don't really care how strongly ingrained this attitude is in the US - it doesn't make any more shortsighted and self-destructive. I got into a bizarre argument the other day with Beep Boop because he was tying to excuse DavidB's rampant xenophobia using the fact that he's European. That's just as ridiculous as what you're suggesting here. Awful attitudes don't become okay just because a lot of people share them.

[Donerail]

To some extent, yes, but by and large it's brought up the extreme shortsighted individualism of a vast majority of Americans (which there was plenty of evidence for before, but had never been laid out in such stark contrast). I'm one of the people who thinks many European countries have gone and are going too far with restrictions, but the tenor of discourse in the US (and on this forum) is so far slanted in the other direction that it becomes pointless to even try making a nuanced point, as I've found out twice recently.

This "shortsighted individualism" is in the DNA of our country, and it is only praised in past Americans (like the Founders) with rose-tinted hindsight glasses.  For better or worse, we don't like our liberties restricted for a "common good" that some expert (be he/she in the field of medicine, economics, politics or whatever else) has decreed to us.  It seemed to be a longstanding consensus in the US that we would take the good with the bad in that, at least knowing that we have the safeguards in place to stop excessive government control over our daily lives.  "Where at least I know I'm free" and all that stuff.  Again, for better or for worse, Democrats have effectively left Republicans and (most) independents at the altar on this...

If you're trying to say that Democrats have picked the losing side electorally, you're probably right, but if we're discussing this from a normative standpoint, I don't really care how strongly ingrained this attitude is in the US - it doesn't make any more shortsighted and self-destructive. I got into a bizarre argument the other day with Beep Boop because he was tying to excuse DavidB's rampant xenophobia using the fact that he's European. That's just as ridiculous as what you're suggesting here. Awful attitudes don't become okay just because a lot of people share them.

What RINO Tom is saying is that the individualism you characterize as “shortsighted and self-destructive” has in fact been borne out throughout history as reasonable and justified. The current situation is no exception.

[Antonio the Sixth]

To some extent, yes, but by and large it's brought up the extreme shortsighted individualism of a vast majority of Americans (which there was plenty of evidence for before, but had never been laid out in such stark contrast). I'm one of the people who thinks many European countries have gone and are going too far with restrictions, but the tenor of discourse in the US (and on this forum) is so far slanted in the other direction that it becomes pointless to even try making a nuanced point, as I've found out twice recently.

This "shortsighted individualism" is in the DNA of our country, and it is only praised in past Americans (like the Founders) with rose-tinted hindsight glasses.  For better or worse, we don't like our liberties restricted for a "common good" that some expert (be he/she in the field of medicine, economics, politics or whatever else) has decreed to us.  It seemed to be a longstanding consensus in the US that we would take the good with the bad in that, at least knowing that we have the safeguards in place to stop excessive government control over our daily lives.  "Where at least I know I'm free" and all that stuff.  Again, for better or for worse, Democrats have effectively left Republicans and (most) independents at the altar on this...

If you're trying to say that Democrats have picked the losing side electorally, you're probably right, but if we're discussing this from a normative standpoint, I don't really care how strongly ingrained this attitude is in the US - it doesn't make any more shortsighted and self-destructive. I got into a bizarre argument the other day with Beep Boop because he was tying to excuse DavidB's rampant xenophobia using the fact that he's European. That's just as ridiculous as what you're suggesting here. Awful attitudes don't become okay just because a lot of people share them.

What RINO Tom is saying is that the individualism you characterize as “shortsighted and self-destructive” has in fact been borne out throughout history as reasonable and justified. The current situation is no exception.

lmao no, one revolution (if you can even call it a revolution - there are strong historical arguments to the contrary) 250 years ago isn't proof that Muh American Rugged Individualism is the superior attitude somehow. It's not like Europe's more pragmatic approach to public policy has stopped it from casting off authoritarian regime when we needed to (I mean, I'm French ffs). And there are like a dozen different ways in which muh American Rugged Individualism has led to objectively worse societal outcomes, as any green avatar should well know.

[Donerail]

As I recall it was not Europe itself that cast off the last couple authoritarian regimes that threatened to dominate the continent.

[parochial boy]

Up until the first world war, potentially even the second world war, the US actually went quite a bit further in developing a proto-welfare state, breaking up monopolies, introducing progressive taxes and all of that than basically any European country was doing at the time.

Point being, that while making grand essentialist statements about "American individualism" of "European solidarity" as if they were just the natural spirit of those places... isn't really true. People's attitudes on social and political questions react much more the more short term contexts and circumstances. In so far as, the US reaction to Covid restrictions can be traced fairly easily to the eternal culture wars and anxieties and divisions of the contemporary US; the media environment; popular perception of that media environment; and so on - and European reactions in the other direction have a similar grounding (like people accept the vaccine passports because they generally trust their governments more than people in the US do, not because they're perfectly fine being traced by the authorities who aren't tracing them anyway).

Not that there aren't cultural differences (including quite big ones within Europe you know), but to go around as if there is some grand difference driving the mentalities of Western Europeans and Americans is, well, as much as it is satisfying to criticise the perceived cultural failings of the arrogant, know-it-alls on the other side of the atlantic - but at best a rather major simplification at worst a fairly creepy way of interpreting the world.

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I was already "authoritarian" before COVID struck and the utter disgrace of half the country pretending COVID is a nothingburger plus the later hospitalization and death of my grandfather in late 2020 only further strengthened it.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Shortly said: yes.

If i would live in America and vote republican: this would be the main reason why, it being that i want normal life to return, and the entire covid 19 hysteria and lockdowns all to go away to where the belong: the graves of history.

HOWEVER...

i do not know the details of the measures and my understanding is that the Democrats are looser than all major political parties in Europe.

I've been a strong proponent of bringing the entire issue to a court that defends human rights... and filing a complaint against elected governments in Europe for what I consider crimes against humanity and the active destabilization and dismantling of our democracy values and values of freedom.

[Mr. Smith]

Yes, but this is decidedly a good thing.