Which of these "covid view camps" do you fall into?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

What is the ideal position in your view? Camp 3?

I already posted:

Somewhere between Camp 3 and Camp 4.

Not that I think these camps accurately reflect the range of possible policies around COVID, but camp 5 definitely seems massively irresponsible (and camps 1 and 2 massively overreacting).

What about Camp 5 applying only to fully vaccinated people?

Like here's kind of my issue with mask mandates, they seem pretty pointless in regards to me.

Like I'm fully vaccinated and boosted. I suppose I could still catch Omicron but it'd fall somewhere between a minor cold and completely asymptomatic if I did. Now I could still infect other people perhaps...but I really only associate with people who are also vaccinated and at low risk. So how is the risk any different from during flu season or if there's a cold going around? Furthermore cloth masks don't protect much against Omicron anyway and expecting people to wear N95s every time they go grocery shopping, to the mall or a sporting event or music show is obviously not feasible and not going to happen. So really me and other people like me going unmasked is really no different than going unmasked during flu season three years ago.

BTW I was at the Mall of America yesterday and I'd estimate only about half of people there were wearing masks. Now granted there's no mask mandate in Bloomington and the mall policy is to only "recommend" them but also consider the demographics of people who go to the MoA. Based on the region it's almost certainly a heavily vaccinated and Democratic group. So I bet a decent chunk of the unmasked are actually probably Democrats who basically just think that they're vaccinated now so they should be able to just live their lives as normal.

Now the anti-vaxxers, f[inks] them, who cares. They can be restricted and have these mandates put on them, no sympathy. But a lot of people don't want to be inconvenienced just because those utter morons exist.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

I mean. Are they even being enforced currently? Because it's a bit hard to judge what's been effective and what hasn't when much of the country has had no restrictions at all.

But if it turns out they're not effective, okay, that's fair enough, but the rest strikes me as rationalization honestly.

Also like... sure, I'm against mask mandates for young children too, but how are masks psychologically damaging for adults?

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

I mean. Are they even being enforced currently? Because it's a bit hard to judge what's been effective and what hasn't when much of the country has had no restrictions at all.

But if it turns out they're not effective, okay, that's fair enough, but the rest strikes me as rationalization honestly.

Also like... sure, I'm against mask mandates for young children too, but how are masks psychologically damaging for adults?

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

Highlighted for your convenience.

But yeah, I certainly agree this discussion was pointless. Have fun I guess.

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

Highlighted for your convenience.

But yeah, I certainly agree this discussion was pointless. Have fun I guess.

You've reminded me of why we couldn't get along before I went on my hiatus. Multiple people have reminded me of that in recent times. That seems to prove to me that some people's opinions of you never change, no matter how much you try.

[MATTROSE94]

Mix of camp 3 or 4. Vaccinated people and even most unvaccinated people should be subject to no restrictions other than mask mandates in medical facilities, vet facilities, public transportation, mental homes, pet shelters, and homeless shelters, but the unvaccinated should be subject to extremely high tax surcharges (like a 99% income tax) and should be at the bottom of triage lists if COVID hospitalizations rise.

Even though I am anti restriction at this point in time, private facilities still have the right to impose restrictions at their discretion and people can still mask up if they desire to do so.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

There just seems like there are no ends to these measures and haven't been able to travel to visit family in india for 3 years., i've been having fully online zoom university for the last 2 years despite living in a country that is 95% vaccinated.

There just seems like the current restrictions are idenfinite and a lot of covid hawks don't seem to care about that. Also your idea of a permenant mask mandate is just tyrannical and silly, are we never going to be able to return to pre-pandemic life, sacrifice the entirety of my youth  and possibly the rest of my life for this.

[Calthrina950]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

There just seems like there are no ends to these measures and haven't been able to travel to visit family in india for 3 years., i've been having fully online zoom university for the last 2 years despite living in a country that is 95% vaccinated.

There just seems like the current restrictions are idenfinite and a lot of covid hawks don't seem to care about that. Also your idea of a permenant mask mandate is just tyrannical and silly, are we never going to be able to return to pre-pandemic life, sacrifice the entirety of my youth  and possibly the rest of my life for this.

The recent push for N95 masks is the reason why I believe that we may be headed for rolling or permanent mask mandates. I've said before that far too many people on here seem to have no issue with adjusting to changes of that nature, and view them as "necessary" sacrifices for the betterment of society. Antonio V is one of those posters. There is no doubt that the coronavirus pandemic has wrought much tragedy and has caused a considerable number of deaths, but there is also no doubt that we have to accept this virus as endemic and move on.

[H. Ross Peron]

Probably 3/4. Everything should be open especially schools, mask mandates limited to hospitals/airplanes/possibly schools, and vaccine mandates should be fairly broad combined with a passport system.

[Хahar 🤔]

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

I don't see how the comparison is absurd at all. The ability that we have to recognize other people is powerful beyond belief. It's what lets us see faces on Mars. Recognizing and knowing other humans is fundamental to what makes us human. When we interact with others, non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal communication, and most of that nonverbal communication is in the face. Cutting off most of the face destroys that.

When I have advanced this argument elsewhere in the past, I've been met with the response that people can understand the emotions and feelings of people they know just fine even with a mask. Even if we suppose that to be the case, what about people they don't know? There is a reason that "faceless stranger" is practically a set phrase in English; without their faces, strangers hardly seem human. When you go into a crowd in a public place where everyone is wearing a mask, you find that you are not met with a single face. It is a perfectly faceless crowd.

At this time, our society is more atomized than it has been at any time in human history, and we find ourselves paying the price over and over. With social trust lower than ever, I find it inconceivable that forcing everyone to put up a fence between themselves and the world passes without a second thought.

I would ask you: what do you think of niqabs? I don't mean whether you think that wearing a niqab should be illegal; I just want to know how you feel about the practice of wearing that article of clothing. Personally I find it repulsive and abhorrent, because its purpose is to erect a barrier between its wearer and the world. It is, quite literally, a cloth mask. Why wouldn't cloth masks have that effect except that we don't want them to?

[beesley]

In between Camp 4 and 5. 5 is my desired endpoint at least.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't see how the comparison is absurd at all. The ability that we have to recognize other people is powerful beyond belief. It's what lets us see faces on Mars. Recognizing and knowing other humans is fundamental to what makes us human. When we interact with others, non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal communication, and most of that nonverbal communication is in the face. Cutting off most of the face destroys that.

When I have advanced this argument elsewhere in the past, I've been met with the response that people can understand the emotions and feelings of people they know just fine even with a mask. Even if we suppose that to be the case, what about people they don't know? There is a reason that "faceless stranger" is practically a set phrase in English; without their faces, strangers hardly seem human. When you go into a crowd in a public place where everyone is wearing a mask, you find that you are not met with a single face. It is a perfectly faceless crowd.

At this time, our society is more atomized than it has been at any time in human history, and we find ourselves paying the price over and over. With social trust lower than ever, I find it inconceivable that forcing everyone to put up a fence between themselves and the world passes without a second thought.

I get that, and I don't think I've been trying to minimize the social element of seeing people's faces. Obviously a society where we never did so would be a pretty disturbing one. I just don't think doing that for a few years, in specific settings with large gatherings in enclosed spaces, has been that socially harmful. Maybe my perspective is biased here because I've never been one for big crowd events in the first place, and I'll try to keep that in mind in future discussions. But at the same time, I do think that the harm of not doing so is pretty hard to dispute, and if another year or two of masking in specific high-risk settings can get us to a place of being able to live with the virus without significant strain, that seems worth it to me.

I would ask you: what do you think of niqabs? I don't mean whether you think that wearing a niqab should be illegal; I just want to know how you feel about the practice of wearing that article of clothing. Personally I find it repulsive and abhorrent, because its purpose is to erect a barrier between its wearer and the world. It is, quite literally, a cloth mask. Why wouldn't cloth masks have that effect except that we don't want them to?

I mean, it's definitely not the kind of cultural practice I'd want to encourage, no. Of course it goes a bit further than a cloth mask in terms what it covers, and I'd argue that the most abhorrent aspect of it is the gendered element. I don't think you really needed this comparison to make your point.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

I don't see how the comparison is absurd at all. The ability that we have to recognize other people is powerful beyond belief. It's what lets us see faces on Mars. Recognizing and knowing other humans is fundamental to what makes us human. When we interact with others, non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal communication, and most of that nonverbal communication is in the face. Cutting off most of the face destroys that.

When I have advanced this argument elsewhere in the past, I've been met with the response that people can understand the emotions and feelings of people they know just fine even with a mask. Even if we suppose that to be the case, what about people they don't know? There is a reason that "faceless stranger" is practically a set phrase in English; without their faces, strangers hardly seem human. When you go into a crowd in a public place where everyone is wearing a mask, you find that you are not met with a single face. It is a perfectly faceless crowd.

At this time, our society is more atomized than it has been at any time in human history, and we find ourselves paying the price over and over. With social trust lower than ever, I find it inconceivable that forcing everyone to put up a fence between themselves and the world passes without a second thought.

I get that, and I don't think I've been trying to minimize the social element of seeing people's faces. Obviously a society where we never did so would be a pretty disturbing one. I just don't think doing that for a few years, in specific settings with large gatherings in enclosed spaces, has been that socially harmful. Maybe my perspective is biased here because I've never been one for big crowd events in the first place, and I'll try to keep that in mind in future discussions. But at the same time, I do think that the harm of not doing so is pretty hard to dispute, and if another year or two of masking in specific high-risk settings can get us to a place of being able to live with the virus without significant strain, that seems worth it to me.

I would ask you: what do you think of niqabs? I don't mean whether you think that wearing a niqab should be illegal; I just want to know how you feel about the practice of wearing that article of clothing. Personally I find it repulsive and abhorrent, because its purpose is to erect a barrier between its wearer and the world. It is, quite literally, a cloth mask. Why wouldn't cloth masks have that effect except that we don't want them to?

I mean, it's definitely not the kind of cultural practice I'd want to encourage, no. Of course it goes a bit further than a cloth mask in terms what it covers, and I'd argue that the most abhorrent aspect of it is the gendered element. I don't think you really needed this comparison to make your point.

That might be your experience but it's clear not mine, here in Singapore our mask mandate applies everytime you are outside with the narrow exception for heavy exercise. You might be walking alone in a park with not a person in sight but the law here mandates you have to wear a mask. My social gatherings have been capped at mostly 5 people with it varying between totally restricted and at the maximum of 8 people and my education has been perpetually on zoom. Singapore has also implemented a strict mandatory qurantine system and I am right now serving a 7 day home qurantine.  I was only able to make a trip due to families fortunate economic position as while as a dire need to see my 90 year old grandfather.

Outdoor masks by themselves do not stop the spread of omicron, even a lockdown doesn't do that once you get a sufficient amount of community spread as can be seen in the Netherlands where cases have continued rising despite a lockdown. What benefit is a mask mandate when it's clearly insufficient to stop the spread, nothing sort of a full china style lockdown for many months would be where there's clearly no political appetite.

Also saying for a few years is handwaving away the fact that we are no closer to the end of the pandemic despite being promised it many times, we were told that we just needed to lockdown for a few weeks to flatten the curve, then until the vaccine was avaliable and the elderly vaccinated, then until 50,6099% of adults are vaccinated for herd immunity, then I was told that was insufficent and even kids had to be vaccinated. Finaly we have arrived with omicron where the new hurdle being held is the claim that if everyone get's bolstered that will end the pandemic. It's not a conspiracy theory to see that these benchmarks are never going to allow the pandemic to end.

My country has essentially put a universal booster mandate if you wish to enter any indoor space or enter a workplace, essential making getting a booster mandatory if you wish to do anything other than be a hermit. Despite this, our cases are still rising sharply similar to everywhere else except china.

Now I support vaccination and boosters because I have looked at the data and seen how effective they have been at reducing the severity of the disease and the death rate, Omicron with 2 doses of the vaccine is effectivley at the same level of the flu. We have been able to bring down the diseases death rate to that of the flu, why can't we as a society treat it as such instead of wanting permanent restrictions ?

[parochial boy]

That might be your experience but it's clear not mine, here in Singapore our mask mandate applies everytime you are outside with the narrow exception for heavy exercise. You might be walking alone in a park with not a person in sight but the law here mandates you have to wear a mask. My social gatherings have been capped at mostly 5 people with it varying between totally restricted and at the maximum of 8 people and my education has been perpetually on zoom. Singapore has also implemented a strict mandatory qurantine system and I am right now serving a 7 day home qurantine.  I was only able to make a trip due to families fortunate economic position as while as a dire need to see my 90 year old grandfather.

Outdoor masks by themselves do not stop the spread of omicron, even a lockdown doesn't do that once you get a sufficient amount of community spread as can be seen in the Netherlands where cases have continued rising despite a lockdown. What benefit is a mask mandate when it's clearly insufficient to stop the spread, nothing sort of a full china style lockdown for many months would be where there's clearly no political appetite.

Also saying for a few years is handwaving away the fact that we are no closer to the end of the pandemic despite being promised it many times, we were told that we just needed to lockdown for a few weeks to flatten the curve, then until the vaccine was avaliable and the elderly vaccinated, then until 50,6099% of adults are vaccinated for herd immunity, then I was told that was insufficent and even kids had to be vaccinated. Finaly we have arrived with omicron where the new hurdle being held is the claim that if everyone get's bolstered that will end the pandemic. It's not a conspiracy theory to see that these benchmarks are never going to allow the pandemic to end.

My country has essentially put a universal booster mandate if you wish to enter any indoor space or enter a workplace, essential making getting a booster mandatory if you wish to do anything other than be a hermit. Despite this, our cases are still rising sharply similar to everywhere else except china.

Now I support vaccination and boosters because I have looked at the data and seen how effective they have been at reducing the severity of the disease and the death rate, Omicron with 2 doses of the vaccine is effectivley at the same level of the flu. We have been able to bring down the diseases death rate to that of the flu, why can't we as a society treat it as such instead of wanting permanent restrictions ?

I mean, those restrictions are clearly completely excessive and counterproductive clearly - but there is a difference between dropping every restriction all together and still maintaining a minimal level on the basis that while it is not dangerous on an individual level, Omicron is still transmissible enough to put a healthcare system under pretty severe pressure.

One thing that does feel noticeable at least in most of Europe is that the messaging has moved towards "once this wave is over, it will be time to drop the restrictions for good". Even if you write it off as an indeterminate future, it is still a clear change in messaging because it is the first time that the authorities have gone as far as suggesting a genuine back to normal is on the cards; and the first time an actual end point has been set.

(feels notable in that respect, that the two Western European countries to have had lockdowns over the Autumn, namely Austria and Holland, are arguably the two that are the most culturally right wing and definitely have the two most right wing governments west of the iron curtain)

In that respect, the restrictions that are in place at the moment here - principally masks in shops and public transport and a vaccine passport seem fine enough. As far as things go, the first is not a major inconvenience (as in, I'm not exactly having many social interactions on the train; and there is no mask requirement in bars or clubs or schools where it would be damaging) and the latter is not an issue at all for the 80%+ of people who are vaccinated.

Totally agree that the restrictions on international travel have wound up totally absurd and ineffective. I missed my grandad's funeral essentially because of my Dad's home country having an insane quarantine requirement even for vaccinated people last June. Especially so for a country like Singapore which has a huge population with foreign backgrounds. One thing that is notable in Europe is that closing borders have been genuinely one of the measures that have had the least public acceptance, have come most to symbolise the societal impact of the restriction, and were both one of the earliest measures to be reversed while recent attempts to close borders have virtually all had to be almost immediately repealed because of the popular outrage. That is in stark contrast to the US happily keeping its borders shut to foreigners for 18 months, without causing anything like the same popular uproar that the comparatively minor measure of wearing a mask in the supermarket has

[Person Man]

I was in 3, but now in 4. I’m actually sort of in 5 but think consumer welfare preemptions against local mandates or private business decisions goes to far.

[GregTheGreat657]

Probably 3/4. Everything should be open especially schools, mask mandates limited to hospitals/airplanes/possibly schools, and vaccine mandates should be fairly broad combined with a passport system.

Kids are the least affected age group by the virus, and forcing 5 year olds to wear masks to protect adults is quite selfish

[Хahar 🤔]

One thing that is notable in Europe is that closing borders have been genuinely one of the measures that have had the least public acceptance, have come most to symbolise the societal impact of the restriction, and were both one of the earliest measures to be reversed while recent attempts to close borders have virtually all had to be almost immediately repealed because of the popular outrage. That is in stark contrast to the US happily keeping its borders shut to foreigners for 18 months, without causing anything like the same popular uproar that the comparatively minor measure of wearing a mask in the supermarket has

The reasons here are pretty obvious, aren't they? Americans live in an enormous country and have far less reason to cross international borders. Many Americans have family members who live abroad, but because those Americans are overwhelmingly immigrants, they are far likelier to travel abroad themselves than to have those family members visit them. Very few Americans are significantly inconvenienced by a policy that closes the border to foreigners.

I was unsure of the current policy, so I looked it up. It turns out that it was what I expected, in that vaccinated foreigners are free to enter the country; there is nothing like Australia's visa regime at present. I have no idea when this policy was implemented, because it was not of any particular interest. What I do know is that for the last year, a close friend of mine has claimed to be "working from home" while in fact he was working from half a dozen different countries in Latin America. Even as an American who frequently travels internationally, he was not significantly inconvenienced by travel restrictions.