Which is worse? Indonesian Mass Killings or Uyghur Genocide
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  Which is worse? Indonesian Mass Killings or Uyghur Genocide
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Question: Which is worse?
#1
Indonesian Mass Killings
 
#2
Uyghur Genocide
 
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Total Voters: 26

Author Topic: Which is worse? Indonesian Mass Killings or Uyghur Genocide  (Read 326 times)
Laki
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« on: January 09, 2022, 09:33:13 PM »

-> see Belgian discussion thread in international politics or elections.
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jfern
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2022, 09:35:40 PM »

Speaking of Belgium, the Belgium Congo is worse, but all 3 are obviously quite bad.
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Laki
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2022, 09:38:37 PM »

Speaking of Belgium, the Belgium Congo is worse, but all 3 are obviously quite bad.
I won't deny that. That is completely true and a fact.
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PSOL
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2022, 11:59:26 PM »

There is no Uyghur genocide given the “independent study” is from white nationalist Adrian Zenz. The situation is worse than Tibet, but not one where they are conducting forced abortions and prison labor for ordinary citizens and not those charged with political crimes.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2022, 12:19:14 AM »

There is no Uyghur genocide given the “independent study” is from white nationalist Adrian Zenz. The situation is worse than Tibet, but not one where they are conducting forced abortions and prison labor for ordinary citizens and not those charged with political crimes.

Adrian Zenz isn't a "white nationalist".
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Southern Delegate Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2022, 12:27:47 AM »

There is no Uyghur genocide given the “independent study” is from white nationalist Adrian Zenz. The situation is worse than Tibet, but not one where they are conducting forced abortions and prison labor for ordinary citizens and not those charged with political crimes.
I've seen issues highlighted about that study, and while I agree that highly repressive policies are being pushed by Beijing, cannot agree uncritically with the study's conclusions and the alleged facts it claims exist. The actual facts are just hard to find, with neither side (the CCP on one end and the Uyghur diaspora and China hawks on the other) being dedicated to the truth and selling a very biased narrative and both actively harming the search for whatever is the closest we can get to objective truth, and it being hard to find credible, fair-handed observers altogether.
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PR
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2022, 03:51:21 PM »

There is no Uyghur genocide given the “independent study” is from white nationalist Adrian Zenz. The situation is worse than Tibet, but not one where they are conducting forced abortions and prison labor for ordinary citizens and not those charged with political crimes.

An ethnic minority being charged en masse for "political" crimes and punished for it in cruel and unusual ways that include basically destroying their culture qualifies as a type of genocide, assuming we're not buying into the Soviet Union's preferred definition of the term.
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I stand with Ukraine and Taiwan
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2022, 01:08:51 AM »

The murder of one person is bad enough. They were both horrific but I'm going to have to go with the Uyghur Genocide, as it specifically targets and persecutes people for their religion.
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c r a b c a k e
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2022, 04:01:47 PM »

The murder of one person is bad enough. They were both horrific but I'm going to have to go with the Uyghur Genocide, as it specifically targets and persecutes people for their religion.

Tbf the Indonesian killings do overlap with a racist wave of pogroms particularly targeted at Chinese Christians.
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Southern Delegate Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2022, 05:08:11 PM »
« Edited: January 14, 2022, 05:20:17 PM by Southern Delegate Punxsutawney Phil »

The murder of one person is bad enough. They were both horrific but I'm going to have to go with the Uyghur Genocide, as it specifically targets and persecutes people for their religion.

Tbf the Indonesian killings do overlap with a racist wave of pogroms particularly targeted at Chinese Christians.
The main point of the Indonesian killings was to eradicate what was the Third World's biggest communist party, no? That's not ethnic or religious as much as it was ideological.
The Indonesian mass killings, come to think about it, actually have a lot of similarity to the Reign of Terror in France.
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c r a b c a k e
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2022, 06:48:17 PM »

The murder of one person is bad enough. They were both horrific but I'm going to have to go with the Uyghur Genocide, as it specifically targets and persecutes people for their religion.

Tbf the Indonesian killings do overlap with a racist wave of pogroms particularly targeted at Chinese Christians.
The main point of the Indonesian killings was to eradicate what was the Third World's biggest communist party, no? That's not ethnic or religious as much as it was ideological.
The Indonesian mass killings, come to think about it, actually have a lot of similarity to the Reign of Terror in France.

It's a complicated question. What you have in this case is a central government allowing gangs of nationalist and ultra religious groups In tandem with the army to run rampaging through the country settling local scores. Often, local Chinese communities were a very visible source of resentment (a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment in SE Asia is very reminiscent of the tropes of European Anti Semitism) and they would get swept up in the bloodshed, especially in Sumatra and Kalimantan.

Other targets were those Muslims following a Javanese syncretic sect, Abangan, who were far more loathed than the christians and Hindus. (Although there was a similar non-Islamic wave of violence in Bali, led by upper caste Hindus using the PKI repression to target the lower castes - essentially you have everybody using the legalization of killing people without trial to really go bloodletting)
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Southern Delegate Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2022, 07:00:06 PM »
« Edited: January 14, 2022, 07:07:26 PM by Southern Delegate Punxsutawney Phil »

The murder of one person is bad enough. They were both horrific but I'm going to have to go with the Uyghur Genocide, as it specifically targets and persecutes people for their religion.

Tbf the Indonesian killings do overlap with a racist wave of pogroms particularly targeted at Chinese Christians.
The main point of the Indonesian killings was to eradicate what was the Third World's biggest communist party, no? That's not ethnic or religious as much as it was ideological.
The Indonesian mass killings, come to think about it, actually have a lot of similarity to the Reign of Terror in France.

It's a complicated question. What you have in this case is a central government allowing gangs of nationalist and ultra religious groups In tandem with the army to run rampaging through the country settling local scores. Often, local Chinese communities were a very visible source of resentment (a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment in SE Asia is very reminiscent of the tropes of European Anti Semitism) and they would get swept up in the bloodshed, especially in Sumatra and Kalimantan.

Other targets were those Muslims following a Javanese syncretic sect, Abangan, who were far more loathed than the christians and Hindus. (Although there was a similar non-Islamic wave of violence in Bali, led by upper caste Hindus using the PKI repression to target the lower castes - essentially you have everybody using the legalization of killing people without trial to really go bloodletting)
While I would caution against drawing one too many similarities between the two analogies (i.e. SE Asian anti-Chinese sentiment and European anti-Semitism), you certainly raise a lot of good points about the multi-faceted nature of the mass killings in general.
It also highlights how "purge of the PKI" is not entirely synonymous with "Indonesian mass killings of 1965" in all contexts. For obvious reasons, though, the PKI being eradicated gets the most attention - given the role it had in defanging the Communist presence in one of the Third World's biggest countries.
Local, parochial local scores just doesn't get as much attention as murderous political purges connected to Cold War politics.
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