Are transgender people the gender they say they are?

[Del Tachi]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

[Del Tachi]

Anyway, the statement "trans (wo)men are (wo)men" is pretty silly for how utterly meaningless it is.  It just begs the question of what a (wo)man actually is, a question that trans activists answer with absurdly circular claims like "a woman is anyone who says they're a woman" lol

[If my soul was made of stone]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Plenty of trans people, myself included, dislike the idea of gender identity being informed by having "male" or "female" brain structure/chemistry because of its deterministic implications, which could lead to even more gatekeeping and red tape by the medical establishment than we already face, blindness to the embodied (as opposed to strictly emotional or cognitive) experiences of dysphoria, and implication that one's identity is rigid and subconscious rather than an object in flux that informs and is informed by one's perceptions and relations to other's identities.

[progressive85]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

[DavidB.]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

I mean, it's true. But it's also in your chromosomes, in your genitalia, etc. etc.

[Del Tachi]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Sure, but you're saying people are transgender from birth?  I don't buy that.  No one serious really argues that gender is an innate characteristic like sex or race.  How someone relates to and understands their gender is at least socially influenced, if not entirely dictated (i.e., concepts of "manhood" and "womanhood" shifting across different cultures.)

[John Dule]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

[progressive85]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Sure, but you're saying people are transgender from birth?  I don't buy that.  No one serious really argues that gender is an innate characteristic like sex or race.  How someone relates and understands their gender is at least socially influenced, if not entirely dictated (i.e., concepts of "manhood" and "womanhood" shifting across different cultures.)

Are you transgender?  Then how are such an expert?

[progressive85]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

[John Dule]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

But the other person in this thread who knows what it's like to be transgender disagrees with you.

[progressive85]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

But the other person in this thread who knows what it's like to be transgender disagrees with you.

I hope tomorrow, sir, you wake up in the body of the opposite sex, and then you tell people that and see the kinds of looks they give you.  And finally you will realize what's truly like to have your own miserable life be used against you on a petty, stupid political forum.

[John Dule]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

But the other person in this thread who knows what it's like to be transgender disagrees with you.

I hope tomorrow, sir, you wake up in the body of the opposite sex

hot

[progressive85]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

But the other person in this thread who knows what it's like to be transgender disagrees with you.

I hope tomorrow, sir, you wake up in the body of the opposite sex

hot

Nobody said anything about your new body being attractive lol.  It could be quite hideous - so not that hot.

[John Dule]

As amusing as this is, nothing you've said here changes the fact that two of the most prominent transgender voices on Atlas disagree on this issue, so calling someone transphobic for disagreeing with you is ridiculous.

[Klobmentum Mutilated Herself]

I'll bite.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the elevation of brain sex for the reasons that discovolante said quite eloquently, but there's enough credibility there that lines up with common trans experiences and research that there's validity in espousing notions of brain sex. A weasely, TransModerate Hero nonanswer, sure, but not as weasely as Dule, who never heard a transgender voice he couldn't ignore, whose notion of personal liberty deliberately does not account for what trans voices say about their experience, who willingly sides with people who are openly hateful of trans people in these arguments, suddenly concern trolling about transgender voices.

[John Dule]

I'll bite.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the elevation of brain sex for the reasons that discovolante said quite eloquently, but there's enough credibility there that lines up with common trans experiences and research that there's validity in espousing notions of brain sex. A weasely, TransModerate Hero nonanswer, sure, but not as weasely as Dule, who never heard a transgender voice he couldn't ignore, whose notion of personal liberty deliberately does not account for what trans voices say about their experience, who willingly sides with people who are openly hateful of trans people in these arguments, suddenly concern trolling about transgender voices.

You're becoming unhinged. Try responding to what I actually write instead of attempting to ascribe malice where there is none.

[TheReckoning]

Dule makes an extremely good point. If people can’t even agree on what causes gender, then who is to say that gender isn’t even real, and that biological sex is all that matters?

[John Dule]

Dule makes an extremely good point. If people can’t even agree on what causes gender, then who is to say that gender isn’t even real, and that biological sex is all that matters?

Or at the very least, if the people who claim to know more about gender than we do can't agree on what it is or where it comes from, then why do they get mad at us for questioning what it is and where it comes from?

[If my soul was made of stone]

your gender is in your brain the day you are born

this seems very incorrect lol

Laugh all you want.  It's clear you mock, you judge, you make fun - but you will never know what its like to be trans - and may you be so grateful that you do not.  It's not something that should be laughed off as if it's a side show freak... these are real kids going through this.  It's not a game or something to joke about.  The suicide rate for trans is through the roof.

Peak Atlas: A transgender user calls someone transphobic for not believing in "brain sex," while ignoring the other transgender user taking same opposing position in a directly previous comment.

Peak Atlas: Intellectuals that like to talk about issues that they have no personal life experience in (such as trans, such as being black, such as having an abortion, etc.)  I think it's high time that the people on this forum stick to what they know... instead of claiming to know everything about livelihoods they know NOTHING about.

But the other person in this thread who knows what it's like to be transgender disagrees with you.

I hope tomorrow, sir, you wake up in the body of the opposite sex

hot

–Ray Blanchard

[If my soul was made of stone]

Dule makes an extremely good point. If people can’t even agree on what causes gender, then who is to say that gender isn’t even real, and that biological sex is all that matters?

Or at the very least, if the people who claim to know more about gender than we do can't agree on what it is or where it comes from, then why do they get mad at us for questioning what it is and where it comes from?

One's gender identity is shaped by many biological and psychosocial factors; the explanations given for it here are not mutually exclusive, the umbrage I take with the "brain sex" narrative being that it's often seen as the lone or ultimate factor in one's perception of oneself. It could well be a factor but reducing it to the factor I think is very dangerous.

You have every right to question these concepts, but as I said before, I have every right to question whether or not you're posing these questions in bad faith. That, contrary to popular belief, is not censorship.

[John Dule]

Dule makes an extremely good point. If people can’t even agree on what causes gender, then who is to say that gender isn’t even real, and that biological sex is all that matters?

Or at the very least, if the people who claim to know more about gender than we do can't agree on what it is or where it comes from, then why do they get mad at us for questioning what it is and where it comes from?

One's gender identity is shaped by many biological and psychosocial factors; the explanations given for it here are not mutually exclusive, the umbrage I take with the "brain sex" narrative being that it's often seen as the lone or ultimate factor in one's perception of oneself. It could well be a factor but reducing it to the factor I think is very dangerous.

You have every right to question these concepts, but as I said before, I have every right to question whether or not you're posing these questions in bad faith. That, contrary to popular belief, is not censorship.

I'd be interested to see what you thought constituted a "good-faith" critique of gender theory.

[Antonio the Sixth]

oh my God, what happened here

"People who disagree with me also disagree among each other, so that proves they're all wrong and I'm right" is a new one as far as logical fallacies go. I'm not sure if it even has a name.

Anyway as we know I also have my own take on gender which is also different from others here, but I assume there's no point in rehashing it.

[John Dule]

oh my God, what happened here

"People who disagree with me also disagree among each other, so that proves they're all wrong and I'm right" is a new one as far as logical fallacies go. I'm not sure if it even has a name.

I can't begin to tell you how deeply disappointed I am with you for making this comment. This is a willful misinterpretation on the level of Dr. Scholl.

[Antonio the Sixth]

oh my God, what happened here

"People who disagree with me also disagree among each other, so that proves they're all wrong and I'm right" is a new one as far as logical fallacies go. I'm not sure if it even has a name.

I can't begin to tell you how deeply disappointed I am with you for making this comment. This is a willful misinterpretation on the level of Dr. Scholl.

Oh please. Like your replies right now have been good-faith engagement. Screaming that people are "get[ting] mad at [you] for questioning what [gender] is and where it comes from" is at least as ridiculous a misrepresentation of others' point as my description was of yours. People are mad at you because you're actively, affirmatively propounding an understanding of gender which they think is wrongheaded and harmful. At least own up to it and don't hide behind the "just asking questions" defense.

[John Dule]

oh my God, what happened here

"People who disagree with me also disagree among each other, so that proves they're all wrong and I'm right" is a new one as far as logical fallacies go. I'm not sure if it even has a name.

I can't begin to tell you how deeply disappointed I am with you for making this comment. This is a willful misinterpretation on the level of Dr. Scholl.

Oh please. Like your replies right now have been good-faith engagement. Screaming that people are "get[ting] mad at [you] for questioning what [gender] is and where it comes from" is at least as ridiculous a misrepresentation of others' point as my description was of yours. People are mad at you because you're actively, affirmatively propounding an understanding of gender which they think is wrongheaded and harmful. At least own up to it and don't hide behind the "just asking questions" defense.

I haven't actively propounded any understanding of gender in this particular conversation. I only injected myself into this exchange because a transgender poster was calling someone transphobic for denying that person's interpretation of gender, while ignoring the fact that another trans poster was also denying that interpretation. It is silly to yell at someone for "not understanding your perspective" when they disagree with you, even while others who clearly understand that perspective don't agree with you.

I don't believe that you actually misinterpreted my posts this badly, so my opinion remains unchanged: You are purposely misrepresenting what I said.