Are transgender people the gender they say they are?

[All Along The Watchtower]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

"I don't see Korean-Americans as Korean or American, I see them as Chinese. It costs them nothing to accept this."

[fhtagn]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

"I don't see Korean-Americans as Korean or American, I see them as Chinese. It costs them nothing to accept this."

Not even the same type of argument. Better luck next time.

[parochial boy]

No it’s just a cause of immense psychological pain, leads to them being forced in to physically dangerous spaces and is on the whole potentially deadly when trans people « aren’t seen as the gender they claim to be »

I mean, what in the actual Christ, this is why people claim that right wingers aren’t capable of empathy.

[All Along The Watchtower]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

"I don't see Korean-Americans as Korean or American, I see them as Chinese. It costs them nothing to accept this."

Not even the same type of argument. Better luck next time.

Why not?

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

a

No it’s just a cause of immense psychological pain, leads to them being forced in to physically dangerous spaces and is on the whole potentially deadly when trans people « aren’t seen as the gender they claim to be »

I mean, what in the actual Christ, this is why people claim that right wingers aren’t capable of empathy.

Just making sure this gets seen.

[All Along The Watchtower]

No it’s just a cause of immense psychological pain, leads to them being forced in to physically dangerous spaces and is on the whole potentially deadly when trans people « aren’t seen as the gender they claim to be »

I mean, what in the actual Christ, this is why people claim that right wingers aren’t capable of empathy.

"Facts don't care about your feelings, they care about my feelings! Trans people are wrong about themselves! Why? Because I said so!"

[All Along The Watchtower]

It's clear that the insistence of trans people to be recognized as the gender they identify as is causing immense psychological pain for certain people. Poor snowflakes.

[fhtagn]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

"I don't see Korean-Americans as Korean or American, I see them as Chinese. It costs them nothing to accept this."

Not even the same type of argument. Better luck next time.

Why not?

One is an argument about whether or not someone sees sex and gender as completely separate or not. If one believes that they are the same, it us completely justifiable for them to assume someone born a male is a man, even if the person presents themselves as a woman. Even if you don't agree with this person, they are still seeing the trans person as something that is existing characteristic about them, whether they choose to continue claiming it or not.

Your argument involves someone seeing another person as something that has never existed in their life. It would be one thing if your argument involved a Korean person moved to America, no longer claimed their Korean heritage, and only wanted to be called American. But you made an argument which involves the person seeing them as something that has never once been attached to them in their life (in this case calling them Chinese).

[If my soul was made of stone]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with our own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

[fhtagn]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with their own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

I've never once "misgendered" anyone on here.

[If my soul was made of stone]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with their own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

I've never once "misgendered" anyone on here.

What makes you so concerned about your ability to do so with impunity, then? Contrary to popular belief, being corrected is not censorship.

[John Dule]

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with our own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

Then you shouldn't respect us enough to care about whether we gender you correctly.

[If my soul was made of stone]

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with our own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

Then you shouldn't respect us enough to care about whether we gender you correctly.

At your invitation, I gladly will.

[fhtagn]

That's not my point. Naturally there are doctors, intimate partners, parents etc, but that's not your position. How do you know what someones birth sex is?

How in your day to day interactions with people do you determine someone's birth sex? Is that something you do with everyone? When is it relevant to you? How do you determine someone is man/woman, male/female other than by how they present to you and what they tell you?

The honest answer is you do accept what they tell you in order to help validate, or correct what you perceive by how they present to you. Birth sex isn't something you can individually determine with each person you meet therefore sociologically it's irrelevant to interactions with people.

If birth sex is important to you, you should doubt everyone who tells you what they are, until they prove what they have between their legs. But that's bordering on sociopathy, so you won't do that either.

So birth sex, on a practical level, doesn't actually matter to you, or me or anyone.

You can argue that “it doesn’t matter if trans men are actually men or not, just don’t be a jerk to people” which is what you’re doing here by saying that since it’s not even possible to know someone’s birth sex 99% of the time, but that’s different than saying “trans men are actually men.”

Why do you care whether they are or not? What difference does it make to you?

Very little, as long as no one actually expects me to consider them men (calling them preferred pronouns/using preferred name is not too much to expect, however).

Why wouldn’t you consider them men? It costs you nothing.

It also costs trans people (and supporters of trans activism) nothing to just accept that not everyone is going to see them as the gender they claim and move on.

I do think that sometimes we trans people go a bit far in the expectation that we can totalize other folks' perspectives on themselves to be immediately in line with their own, especially if one's identity is rather volatile, but of course given that it's people like you and Dule arguing this I can only assume that it's coming from a place of actively taking delight in misgendering people for its own sake, which is a sorry reflection on your principles.

I've never once "misgendered" anyone on here.

What makes you so concerned about your ability to do so with impunity, then? Contrary to popular belief, being corrected is not censorship.

It's more of a concern that not just on forum but IRL too, despite all claims that trans people are some oppressed class, they (as well as cis supporters) have a stranglehold on modern society to dictate that one's life can be ruined simply for having justifiable reasons not to see them as they gender they demand to be seen as. And even if it doesn't go as far as ruining someone's livelihood, it's often still going as far as assigning some nasty label to someone or some lesser form of punishment for insanely dumb reasons like thinking there are only two genders, thinking that there's no difference between gender and sex and you are what you are born as, refusing to have sex with someone because the other person is trans/not having the genitals of their preference, having an issue with trans women in women's only spaces, etc. Contrary to how you are presenting it here, in our culture today, "correcting" often means forcing someone to hold your view despite their justifiable reasons not to see it the way you do.

[7,052,770]

Who's ever been "punished" (by the Left for "trans equality reasons", we know the Right has done it plenty to gays wanting them to become straight) for not wanting to have sex with the genitals they're not attracted to? That sounds like one of those Twitter things that bots and trolls grandstand about but never actually happens in real life.

[parochial boy]

It's more of a concern that not just on forum but IRL too, despite all claims that trans people are some oppressed class, they (as well as cis supporters) have a stranglehold on modern society to dictate that one's life can be ruined simply for having justifiable reasons not to see them as they gender they demand to be seen as. And even if it doesn't go as far as ruining someone's livelihood, it's often still going as far as assigning some nasty label to someone or some lesser form of punishment for insanely dumb reasons like thinking there are only two genders, thinking that there's no difference between gender and sex and you are what you are born as, refusing to have sex with someone because the other person is trans/not having the genitals of their preference, having an issue with trans women in women's only spaces, etc. Contrary to how you are presenting it here, in our culture today, "correcting" often means forcing someone to hold your view despite their justifiable reasons not to see it the way you do.

Because trans people are an oppressed class. No matter what you like to think, any person coming out as trans today is going to face, in the very best case scenario, a intense degree of social rejection and hatred on top of the already rather unpleasant experience of dysphoria that would have lead to them coming out as trans in the first place. Trans people are far, far more vulnerable to physical and sexual violence, exclusion from the workplace, exclusion by family and friends, homelessness and suicide than almost any other group in society; on top of the fact that they are still an acceptable target in the way that very few other groups are. Look at the legislation that is directed at them, or even look at the attitudes directed towards them even on this allegedly liberal forum. You can, and are, nasty about trans people in a way that it is totally taboo to be about gay people or black people in this day and age.

Frankly, presenting yourself as the victim of trans people because of your brave opposition to the legitimacy of their gender identity speaks to a simply incredible level of narcissism and hypocrisy on your part.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

[T]rans people [...] have a stranglehold on modern society

The year is still 2022, but we live in fhtagn's alternate reality. The United States lives under TRANS RULE. All cis males are forcibly feminized. Cis women are voluntarily virilized. Welcome to America's TRANS FUTURE.

Frank Taggin remembers life before the revolution -- before the government-issued hormones, the pronoun stickers, women in women's spaces, and legal gender changes. She lives in the war-torn outskirts of Virginia Prince (formerly known as simply Virginia), where she hides her cisgender Australian boyfriend Muaddib from the clutches of the brutal Transamerican army.

As musclebound trans soldiers prowl the countryside searching for susceptible cisgender people, Frank will stop at nothing to protect sweet Muaddib's purity. (I feel gross writing the rest. Use your imagination regarding the mind-bending world of TRANS FUTURE.)

[All Along The Watchtower]

It's more of a concern that not just on forum but IRL too, despite all claims that trans people are some oppressed class, they (as well as cis supporters) have a stranglehold on modern society to dictate that one's life can be ruined simply for having justifiable reasons not to see them as they gender they demand to be seen as. And even if it doesn't go as far as ruining someone's livelihood, it's often still going as far as assigning some nasty label to someone or some lesser form of punishment for insanely dumb reasons like thinking there are only two genders, thinking that there's no difference between gender and sex and you are what you are born as, refusing to have sex with someone because the other person is trans/not having the genitals of their preference, having an issue with trans women in women's only spaces, etc. Contrary to how you are presenting it here, in our culture today, "correcting" often means forcing someone to hold your view despite their justifiable reasons not to see it the way you do.

"Help, I'm being oppressed!"

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

[T]rans people [...] have a stranglehold on modern society

The year is still 2022, but we live in fhtagn's alternate reality. The United States lives under TRANS RULE. All cis males are forcibly feminized. Cis women are voluntarily virilized. Welcome to America's TRANS FUTURE.

Frank Taggin remembers life before the revolution -- before the government-issued hormones, the pronoun stickers, women in women's spaces, and legal gender changes. She lives in the war-torn outskirts of Virginia Prince (formerly known as simply Virginia), where she hides her cisgender Australian boyfriend Muaddib from the clutches of the brutal Transamerican army.

As musclebound trans soldiers prowl the countryside searching for susceptible cisgender people, Frank will stop at nothing to protect sweet Muaddib's purity. (I feel gross writing the rest. Use your imagination regarding the mind-bending world of TRANS FUTURE.)

I think this is the first time I've seen a FUTURE that wasn't funny.

[If my soul was made of stone]

[T]rans people [...] have a stranglehold on modern society

The year is still 2022, but we live in fhtagn's alternate reality. The United States lives under TRANS RULE. All cis males are forcibly feminized. Cis women are voluntarily virilized. Welcome to America's TRANS FUTURE.

Frank Taggin remembers life before the revolution -- before the government-issued hormones, the pronoun stickers, women in women's spaces, and legal gender changes. She lives in the war-torn outskirts of Virginia Prince (formerly known as simply Virginia), where she hides her cisgender Australian boyfriend Muaddib from the clutches of the brutal Transamerican army.

As musclebound trans soldiers prowl the countryside searching for susceptible cisgender people, Frank will stop at nothing to protect sweet Muaddib's purity. (I feel gross writing the rest. Use your imagination regarding the mind-bending world of TRANS FUTURE.)

I think this is the first time I've seen a FUTURE that wasn't funny.

Probably because you're genuinely afraid of this happening, no?

I didn't find it that funny either, but I just think the meme has long since run its course. I'd personally rather trans folks be the clergy in a society politically and socially controlled by cis women than have us as an all-encompassing ruling class.

[progressive85]

Yes, absolutely, nobody would choose that life without serious suffering and pain.  It's not something that can be chosen - your gender is in your brain the day you are already born, it is created that way in the womb.

Whatever parts you have - that's not really your gender... that's your anatomy or what happened to your body - there is a Higher Power and the higher power makes you on the inside, and that's a religious perspective on this.

Google "Two-spirits" from Native societies. 

Transgender should be spiritually revered - it's been around since the beginning of time!

[Matt24]

Yes, I respect trans people's identity because I'm a decent f****** human being.

[John Dule]

Yes, I respect trans people's identity because I'm a decent f****** human being.

You're going to fit in really well here.

[Matt24]

Yes, I respect trans people's identity because I'm a decent f****** human being.

You're going to fit in really well here.

Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

[John Dule]

Yes, I respect trans people's identity because I'm a decent f****** human being.

You're going to fit in really well here.

Is this supposed to be sarcasm?

No, I'm serious. For a strident left-wing red NJ avatar, adjusting to this forum is going to be like lowering yourself into a nice warm bath.