Will/Should US defend Ukraine against Russian invasion, at the risk of starting WW3?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://twitter.com/edokeefe/status/1468612402640048134?t=kh2wX8th3o8oKl6FL9jOyA...

Great American Patriots Biden and Tucker get it!

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1468394056191385606



https://www.businessinsider.com/tucker-carlson-accuses-gop-trying-to-spark-us-russia-war-2021-12
Tucker Carlson accused the GOP of trying to goad the US into war with Russia, the day after he took Putin's side on Ukraine

• Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Wednesday again addressed Russian-Ukrainian tensions.
• He accused some Republicans of seeking to pull the US into a conflict with Vladimir Putin.
• It followed a segment the previous day when Carlson argued in favor of Putin's actions.

Fox News host Tucker Carlson accused part of the Republican Party of seeking to goad the US into military confrontation with Russia.

Carlson's claim was part of a series of sympathetic arguments he made as Russia conducts a military buildup along its border with Ukraine, sparking fears of a conflict.

The host claimed Tuesday that Russia actions were a defensive response to NATO aggression, drawing accusations that he was pushing Kremlin propaganda.

On Wednesday night's edition of his show he turned his attention to those in the US he claimed are seeking to push the Biden administration towards conflict.

"It's almost impossible to believe, but we actually are moving closer to a hot war with Russia," said Carlson, claiming "you could wake up one morning and it's 1914," referencing the year that World War I broke out in Europe.

"Republicans are doing nothing to stop this," Carlson said. "In fact, they're egging the weak and incompetent president on to do more. 'Oh, Biden is weak. He's not standing up against Vladimir Putin!'"

"You're hearing that constantly, including on this channel from Republicans. And the rhetoric is getting hotter and crazier and more disconnected from reality."

I understand Tucker is very popular on Russian "news", when it's not busy hoping for the return of Putin's lapdog Donald Trump.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/edokeefe/status/1468612402640048134?t=kh2wX8th3o8oKl6FL9jOyA...

Great American Patriots Biden and Tucker get it!

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1468394056191385606



https://www.businessinsider.com/tucker-carlson-accuses-gop-trying-to-spark-us-russia-war-2021-12
Tucker Carlson accused the GOP of trying to goad the US into war with Russia, the day after he took Putin's side on Ukraine

• Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Wednesday again addressed Russian-Ukrainian tensions.
• He accused some Republicans of seeking to pull the US into a conflict with Vladimir Putin.
• It followed a segment the previous day when Carlson argued in favor of Putin's actions.

Fox News host Tucker Carlson accused part of the Republican Party of seeking to goad the US into military confrontation with Russia.

Carlson's claim was part of a series of sympathetic arguments he made as Russia conducts a military buildup along its border with Ukraine, sparking fears of a conflict.

The host claimed Tuesday that Russia actions were a defensive response to NATO aggression, drawing accusations that he was pushing Kremlin propaganda.

On Wednesday night's edition of his show he turned his attention to those in the US he claimed are seeking to push the Biden administration towards conflict.

"It's almost impossible to believe, but we actually are moving closer to a hot war with Russia," said Carlson, claiming "you could wake up one morning and it's 1914," referencing the year that World War I broke out in Europe.

"Republicans are doing nothing to stop this," Carlson said. "In fact, they're egging the weak and incompetent president on to do more. 'Oh, Biden is weak. He's not standing up against Vladimir Putin!'"

"You're hearing that constantly, including on this channel from Republicans. And the rhetoric is getting hotter and crazier and more disconnected from reality."

I understand Tucker is very popular on Russian "news", when it's not busy hoping for the return of Putin's lapdog Donald Trump.

Tucker is the best, true patriot of his country!

About the lapdogs...


https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-russia-ukraine-europe-vladimir-putin-8193787ec21ca2aded4a37fa325f07b5
NATO, Ukraine autonomy pose diplomatic challenges for Biden

Biden spoke by phone Thursday with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, although no details were available immediately after their discussion.

Administration officials have suggested that the U.S. will press Ukraine to formally cede a measure of autonomy to eastern Ukrainian lands now controlled by Russia-backed separatists who rose up against Kyiv in 2014. An undefined “special status” for those areas was laid out in an ambiguous, European-brokered peace deal in 2015, but it has never taken hold.

I doubt it is true, but if it really is, it's Putin's biggest win. Bigger than Nord Stream 2 that Pr. Biden gave over to him.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

Putin's lapdog Donald Trump.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1468578603910717441

By the way, is it at all notable that Crimea became part of Russia during the Obama administration, and now Russia is supposedly preparing to invade Ukraine during the Biden administration, but never did either when they had their blackmail-controlled puppet in the White House?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Putin's lapdog Donald Trump.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1468578603910717441

By the way, is it at all notable that Crimea became part of Russia during the Obama administration, and now Russia is supposedly preparing to invade Ukraine during the Biden administration, but never did either when they had their blackmail-controlled puppet in the White House?

Greenwald's points deserve some contemplation.

I am incredibly torn by this issue.  I am certainly anti-war, and I certainly believe that it is in America's interest that there not be war with Russia, period.  Some of the rhetoric on both sides of the spectrum is pretty ridiculous.  Roger Wicker talking about the use of nuclear weapons???  You've got to be kidding me!  Yet here we are.  And I certainly understand the concerns of the Ukrainian people and their nation; their treatment by Russia/USSR/Russia again over time is not defensible.  Russia doesn't have the moral high ground on THAT issue.

My gut instinct as to why we're here on this issue is one of "This is what happens when Diplomats carve out nations!".  From the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the 1848 revolutions in Europe, to the end of the Crimean War and the Franco-Prussian wars, to Versailles, diplomats have carved out new nations and new boundaries for nations, and it has never gone well.  What is going on with Ukraine now is, indeed, little different than what happened to nations and parts of nations after Versailles.  There was an argument made at the fall of the USSR not to create an independent Ukraine, and all I can say about that is that if Ukraine had remained a part of Russia, we wouldn't be where we are now.  I'm not saying whether that is bad or good.  I am saying that World War III will not be a good thing, period.

The Ukrainian people do not deserve a Russian invasion.  They deserve their nation, and their own experiment at self-rule.  As for American foreign policy, I do believe that it is clear that our most reliable allies over time have been the democracies of the world.  I am not for nation-building, and some parts of the World are areas where democracy is too much in opposition to long-standing cultural and religious norms.  But where the people WILL have a democracy, we should be the "Friend of Liberty" as John Adams said.  And, yet, there will be no liberty after a WWIII where China picks up the pieces, and this is a likely outcome to a WWIII over this issue.

"If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and heal their land."  (2 Chronicles 7:14)  I truly believe that this situation requires Divine Intervention, in no small measure because of who leads Russia and who leads America at this moment.  Healing our Land DOES mean bringing our country (and Ukraine) back from the brink of WWIII.  I do believe that it is not constructive to encourage Ukraine to fight; it is an unfair fight, and a fight that they are certain to lose if Putin decides to go to war there.  I do believe that God is bigger than Vladamir Putin, and I do believe that God can restrain a sinful man whose impulses is to do something "because he can". 

I do think, however, that our relations with Russia, going forward, ought to be different.  Putin is, by no means, the World's Worst Leader.  That is another discussion for another time.  I will say this:  Our endless criticism of Putin and our reluctance to treat him as any kind of partner over time has resulted in him living up to our lowest expectations.  A reassessment of our Russia Policy and what it has been, is very much in order.

[Person Man]

Putin's lapdog Donald Trump.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1468578603910717441

By the way, is it at all notable that Crimea became part of Russia during the Obama administration, and now Russia is supposedly preparing to invade Ukraine during the Biden administration, but never did either when they had their blackmail-controlled puppet in the White House?

Greenwald's points deserve some contemplation.

I am incredibly torn by this issue.  I am certainly anti-war, and I certainly believe that it is in America's interest that there not be war with Russia, period.  Some of the rhetoric on both sides of the spectrum is pretty ridiculous.  Roger Wicker talking about the use of nuclear weapons???  You've got to be kidding me!  Yet here we are.  And I certainly understand the concerns of the Ukrainian people and their nation; their treatment by Russia/USSR/Russia again over time is not defensible.  Russia doesn't have the moral high ground on THAT issue.

My gut instinct as to why we're here on this issue is one of "This is what happens when Diplomats carve out nations!".  From the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the 1848 revolutions in Europe, to the end of the Crimean War and the Franco-Prussian wars, to Versailles, diplomats have carved out new nations and new boundaries for nations, and it has never gone well.  What is going on with Ukraine now is, indeed, little different than what happened to nations and parts of nations after Versailles.  There was an argument made at the fall of the USSR not to create an independent Ukraine, and all I can say about that is that if Ukraine had remained a part of Russia, we wouldn't be where we are now.  I'm not saying whether that is bad or good.  I am saying that World War III will not be a good thing, period.

The Ukrainian people do not deserve a Russian invasion.  They deserve their nation, and their own experiment at self-rule.  As for American foreign policy, I do believe that it is clear that our most reliable allies over time have been the democracies of the world.  I am not for nation-building, and some parts of the World are areas where democracy is too much in opposition to long-standing cultural and religious norms.  But where the people WILL have a democracy, we should be the "Friend of Liberty" as John Adams said.  And, yet, there will be no liberty after a WWIII where China picks up the pieces, and this is a likely outcome to a WWIII over this issue.

"If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, and I will forgive their sin and heal their land."  (2 Chronicles 7:14)  I truly believe that this situation requires Divine Intervention, in no small measure because of who leads Russia and who leads America at this moment.  Healing our Land DOES mean bringing our country (and Ukraine) back from the brink of WWIII.  I do believe that it is not constructive to encourage Ukraine to fight; it is an unfair fight, and a fight that they are certain to lose if Putin decides to go to war there.  I do believe that God is bigger than Vladamir Putin, and I do believe that God can restrain a sinful man whose impulses is to do something "because he can". 

I do think, however, that our relations with Russia, going forward, ought to be different.  Putin is, by no means, the World's Worst Leader.  That is another discussion for another time.  I will say this:  Our endless criticism of Putin and our reluctance to treat him as any kind of partner over time has resulted in him living up to our lowest expectations.  A reassessment of our Russia Policy and what it has been, is very much in order.

I think that’s where the silent majority stands on the issue. We have to be wary of wanting war and finding ourselves in war because we tried to avoid one too much.

[David Hume]

Please read!

I now turn to all of you with a very important message. And first of all, I ask you to read it to those who consider Ukraine part of Russia or consider only Crimea and Donbass part of Russia or in any other way deny the territorial integrity of my country. I'm not going to call these Atlas posters right now, but they know exactly who I'm talking about. It should be noted that I perceive all this not as a personal insult to me, but as an insult to my people and my state, and not only as an insult, but as an open call to destroy the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

First of all, I must say that I do not believe that anyone, no matter Americans, British or Germans, should fight for Ukraine and defend its independence at the cost of their lives. In my opinion, this is too much. Human life is the highest value and to give it for the defense of another's country, another's people is not always right and appropriate. I understand the grief of mothers who are expecting a son from the war in another state, but will never be able to see him again. This is terrible. And it should not be so. Therefore, the presence and assistance of the US military in Ukraine to protect it from the Kremlin's insanity would be great, but I absolutely do not support it, at least not yet. Defending a foreign country is not worth the tears of mothers, wives and sisters. I say this as a person whose acquaintances include veterans of the Afghan war and there are families in which someone from the Afghan war has not returned.

At the same time, the United States must provide absolutely any armament that Ukraine will need to protect its territorial integrity. Absolutely any. Why? First, because it's not just about Ukraine. It's about the West's ability to stand up to Russia, it's about the West's resilience to the Russian threat. You know, some European parties are almost openly funded by Russia, at least. Whether we like it or not, many countries depend on Russia. With the construction and launch of Nord Stream 2 (which I believe will be the case anyway), Europe is also becoming dependent on Russia. During all the years of construction of this gas pipeline, the interests of Eastern European and Baltic countries have been betrayed. But now this problem is not only in Eastern Europe, but throughout the EU. The topic of Nord Stream-2 is, in fact, a little different. I will return to previous thoughts. So, Russia will definitely not stop at a full-scale war against Ukraine (it is worth remembering that Russia's war against Ukraine has been going on for 7 years, but it is not full-scale). Whether I want to admit it or not, I must point out that Ukraine itself will not be able to withstand the Russian army without the help of the West. So, after the fall of Ukraine in the absence of Western aid, the actual Anschluss of Belarus, which has already taken place, the Kremlin marasmatic will continue to return the empire. Many countries will fall victim to this policy, and the worst thing is that the West will not be able to do anything about it. If you do not act now, then it will be too late.

And now I want to answer all the people who said something like "Ukraine belongs to Russia", "It's one people" or something else. Dear and not very dear, you know, I will not even touch on the time of the Russian Empire, when almost all the peasants were serfs who had no right to revolt, who had absolutely no rights, and who could be exchanged for a necklace; when Ukrainian culture was persecuted and destroyed at a slow pace.

I will talk about the Soviet Union - a favorite country of many fanatics. You know, my great-grandfather was exiled to Solovki during collectivization, from where he never returned. Do you know why? He privately owned 3 hectares of land, 2 horses and 4 cows. He was exiled, and his property was collectivized, taken to the collective farm, where two horses and 2 cows died six months later due to neglect.

Then there was the Holodomor. Can you imagine parents slaughtering and eating their child? I couldn't either, but it was. In the village where my grandfather's family lived, 80 percent of the population died. It was the same in the neighboring villages. Party members came to the house, killed all the pets so that they would not be eaten, and took all the food. My grandfather's family escaped by eating frogs, moles, and mice. Because people hid grain somewhere at home, they could just be shot. At the same time, grain was exported at a breakneck pace, wheat, barley and other grains grew in the fields, but people could not eat it because the Law "On Three Ears" was adopted. This law was that if a person plucks ears of corn in the field, he must be shot immediately.

After the Holodomor, ethnic Russians were brought into empty houses, most of whom had previously been prisoners - murderers, robbers, and so on. Thus, the Ukrainian-speaking Donbass, inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians, was transformed into a region of Russian-speaking ethnic Russians. After the Holodomor, the repressions of 1936-1937 began, when the entire Ukrainian intelligentsia was destroyed. My great-grandmother, who was a schoolteacher, was sent to a concentration camp for 20 years for coming to work in Ukrainian national clothes. She returned from exile after Stalin's death, when Khrushchev was rehabilitating some prisoners, but died a few years later because she became seriously ill in the North.

The culture of Ukrainians was practically destroyed. Ethnic Ukrainian territories were inhabited by Russians. Those were terrible times. And they will be repeated if Russia captures Ukraine.

And in the end, I can't keep quiet, let it be extremely rude, but all those who say here that "Ukraine is a part of Russia", "It's one nation with a small difference", etc. - you are scum, you are horrible people. Everyone who knows me knows that I have never called anyone here a bad word, but I cannot remain silent now. God forbid that any of you go through what my great-grandparents, grandparents, and finally, my parents went through, God forbid!

Posting this in two threads. The other being Ukraine general discussion

Thanks for sharing this sad yet important info. I have a few questions.

I am very interested in history and culture. I hope small cultures to survive and not been fully assimilated by the dominant ones. From my knowledge, Belarusian is closer to Ukrainian than Russian in terms of language and culture. But unfortunately, it seems Belarusians are ok with being Russified. Currently most of the people over there speak Russian as mother tongue. It seems unavoidable that they will be completely Russfied in a generation or two. This is vastly different from Ukraine. Do you know why is that the case? How strong is the national identity in Belarus?

For Ukraine, I heard there is a deep national divide. The western part, especially Galicia, was strongly influenced by Poland and Austrian Empire, and strongly against Russification, while the east is less so. What about the ethnic Ukrainians in the eastern part, who survive the Soviet holocaust and Russification?

I know Ukraine is currently going through de-russification. But in the worst case scenario, say US did not defend nor provide enough support, and Putin conquered Ukraine. He is likely to re-russify Ukraine, like promoting Russian as official language again. Do you think the eastern Ukraine could survive that, or (unfortunately) become another Belarus?

And if the current situation continues, or the broke-away forces continue with effective autonomy. Do you think they will be russified like Belarus?

[😥]

Please read!
Skip

Thanks for sharing this sad yet important info. I have a few questions.

I am very interested in history and culture. I hope small cultures to survive and not been fully assimilated by the dominant ones. From my knowledge, Belarusian is closer to Ukrainian than Russian in terms of language and culture. But unfortunately, it seems Belarusians are ok with being Russified. Currently most of the people over there speak Russian as mother tongue. It seems unavoidable that they will be completely Russfied in a generation or two. This is vastly different from Ukraine. Do you know why is that the case? How strong is the national identity in Belarus?

For Ukraine, I heard there is a deep national divide. The western part, especially Galicia, was strongly influenced by Poland and Austrian Empire, and strongly against Russification, while the east is less so. What about the ethnic Ukrainians in the eastern part, who survive the Soviet holocaust and Russification?

I know Ukraine is currently going through de-russification. But in the worst case scenario, say US did not defend nor provide enough support, and Putin conquered Ukraine. He is likely to re-russify Ukraine, like promoting Russian as official language again. Do you think the eastern Ukraine could survive that, or (unfortunately) become another Belarus?

And if the current situation continues, or the broke-away forces continue with effective autonomy. Do you think they will be russified like Belarus?

Thank you for these questions. They are actually very meaningful, important and interesting. I have no moral right not to answer them. But I think it's worth doing in a separate thread that I'll create, maybe in a week or so. I plan to make this thread in which I will answer all the questions about Ukraine and will tell about Ukrainian culture and famous beautiful places in Ukraine, to begin with. And I promise I'll start with your questions!