Convince me to believe

[John Dule]

Call me Fox Mulder, but I really do WANT to believe.

Why?

[John Dule]

Yes Alben, please watch some Craig Keener. Nothing is more certain to solidify your nonbelief for the foreseeable future.

[John Dule]

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

People die for their beliefs all the time, regardless of it's rationality or it's 'truth'. People will die for a lie, even if held sincerely. I don't think it's a very good apologist argument.

But afleitch, why would Ashley Babbitt sacrifice herself if the election wasn't actually stolen?

[John Dule]

Yes Alben, please watch some Craig Keener. Nothing is more certain to solidify your nonbelief for the foreseeable future.

Keener is amazingly fun to read - his brilliant commentaries on Acts and John especially. His three books on miracles (he came out with a new one this year that’s much cheaper) are fascinating and have been endorsed by a wide variety of scholars, most notably by Dale Allison.

He does have ADHD, which can make it difficult to listen to him speak for some people. Here is a video of his, for example, wherein he appears to be wearing a hoody just over his head, pulled down below his eyebrows, but doesn’t have his arms in it. He’s a brilliant scholar, though, and his grasp of philosophical argumentation and secondary literature is amazing.

Oh, definitely. I think every nonbeliever should watch his stuff in order to get the best possible impression of Christians.

[John Dule]

Oh, definitely. I think every nonbeliever should watch his stuff in order to get the best possible impression of Christians.

The irony of sardonic mockery including a suggestion that the person being mocked gives a bad impression of Christians must fly over your head.

I watched the speech he did at Biola I think you’ve said you watched and laughed at, and I find it difficult to believe someone watched that and didn’t seriously question their prior beliefs. I was rather sympathetic to cessationism for a long time before discovering Keener, and he transformed my theological thoughts on miracles. To pretend that the bias of your own culture is self-evidently true and not in need of arguments in its favor because it’s obviously true is to assert that one’s beliefs are unjustified.

Yes, this is how preaching to the choir works. The converted sit in reverent awe while the rest of us roll our eyes.

[John Dule]

Yes, this is how preaching to the choir works. The converted sit in reverent awe while the rest of us roll our eyes.

Of course! Why would you need to justify a disbelief in miracles when you can just cite the authority of the culture of Western modernity and its position on miracles? Especially given its obvious superiority to ignoramuses in the third world and the past! I mean, they don’t have Libertarianism way back when.

I don't feel a need to justify my disbeliefs to you because whenever I do, you just abandon the conversation in order to avoid addressing my points. This has happened at least four times, and I don't feel any obligation to get bogged down in a fifth.

[John Dule]

I don't feel a need to justify my disbeliefs to you because whenever I do, you just abandon the conversation in order to avoid addressing my points. This has happened at least four times, and I don't feel any obligation to get bogged down in a fifth.

Usually, this occurs only after a couple days of back-and-forth, and it is true you usually get the last word in. This stems in part from a worry of mine that the distinction between our presuppositions is so great that rational debate may be intrinsically nonsensical. I first came across this when discussing TAG with a very intelligent atheist friend of mine and heard him reject the second premise by arguing that the laws of logic are probably derivative of the laws of physics. I don’t think one of us is irrational, per se, but rather that we disagree even on the nature of reasoning, about which there can be no reasoned debate.

I nevertheless like to hear Arguments Against Miracles because I’d like to hear a plausible one so I can understands the conclusions of much of liberal theology, which rejects miracles by and large.

Don't you reject most miracles? You've called yourself a "cessationist" in the past.

[John Dule]

You've called yourself a "cessationist" in the past.

I said I’m sympathetic to cessationism’s concerns.

I am a cessationist - I do not believe miracles continue in the present day.