Convince me to believe
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 07:20:46 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  Convince me to believe
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Convince me to believe  (Read 1482 times)
Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,282
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: November 27, 2021, 03:44:29 AM »

Call me Fox Mulder, but I really do WANT to believe.

I just CAN’T, knowing what I know about the hodgepodge of sketchy sources the Bible is compiled from which undermines the “sola scriptura” principle of protestantism, and the long history of corruption in the Catholic Church which makes it difficult to believe it really has somehow been a source of divine tradition for thousands of years.

And don’t even get me started on other religions; Islam and Mormonism SCREAM “con artist” in their origins. Buddhism honestly feels less like a religion and more like a slightly less secular version of the “mindfulness” exercises therapists have tried and failed to use on me over the years. Hinduism is… well… something, that’s for sure.

That basically leaves just Judaism and Christianity in some form. But I just can’t escape or overlook the numerous flaws in them as well. These days I consider myself a deist, as in someone who thinks there is probably some kind of supernatural force out there which put all our laws of nature into motion, but hasn’t interfered since. I’m looking for some kind of concrete evidence, especially from but not limited to the Judeo-Christian perspective, that is not the case and there really somehow is a loving, caring god out there in this cruel, uncaring world. Again, I WANT to believe it. I just find it increasingly difficult to do so by the day.
Logged
vitoNova
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,267
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2021, 11:33:31 AM »

It makes absolutely zero logical sense to view Islam and Mormonism as "con artistry", only to regard the other Abrahamic cults religions as being somewhat credible.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,249


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2021, 12:04:53 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2021, 12:36:32 PM by Butlerian Jihad »

Buddhism honestly feels less like a religion and more like a slightly less secular version of the “mindfulness” exercises therapists have tried and failed to use on me over the years.

This is certainly how a certain type of Western popularizer prefers to present it, yes. I'd advise you to look further into sources and authorities on it that aren't intended for the consumption of ~white wokesters~ in Marin County. "Mindfulness" is actually a pretty small part of the way most laypeople practice Buddhism in countries where it's historically dominant.
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,321
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2021, 12:34:57 PM »

Call me Fox Mulder, but I really do WANT to believe.

Why?
Logged
Gracile
gracile
Moderators
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,043


Political Matrix
E: -8.00, S: -7.65

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2021, 12:48:44 PM »

As an atheist, I'm probably the last person who would convince you to believe in any given religion, but I will say that being "convinced" of something is looking at faith (and the lack of faith) the wrong way. Even when I was taught about other religions or participated in moments of prayer/ritual, I never doubted that intrinsically these rituals were meaningless to me and had no relevance to my true allegiance toward atheism. I assume this is true for many religious people, as well. Knowing about the philosophies of different religions is important to adherents, but what's most important to them is that they have integrated the rituals and texts as a way to make sense of their intrinsic faith - to the point when presented with something else, they would still see themself as part of their chosen religion.

I'm not familiar with what your spiritual background is, but my advice to you is to look at what your innate view of the existence of a higher power (without thinking of external pressures like family, community, etc.) and try to see if there is a religion that fits with your conceptions. If something in you is telling you that you really don't believe and you are mostly trying to find a faith to appease outside pressures, take your instincts seriously and realize that organized religion is not suitable for you.
Logged
Associate Justice PiT
PiT (The Physicist)
Atlas Politician
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 31,135
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2021, 10:49:20 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2021, 11:02:05 PM by Associate Justice PiT »

     If you are interested in evidence specifically, there is abundant testimony of miraculous healings and other occurrences in the Christian tradition. Myself, my mother, my wife, and my mother-in-law have all been the beneficiaries of faith healings. Craig Keener has done extensive work documenting these events if you are interested in seeing more about the evidence of Christian miracles.

     With that said, I think it is important to explain what the Christian understanding is. You say you find the world is cruel and uncaring, and one could definitely be excused for thinking so looking at the Orthodox Christian calendar and seeing numerous victims of violence at the hands of Romans, Ottomans, Soviets, and other groups being commemorated throughout the year. From an atheistic point of view it is a massive waste of human life, but while we grieve the violence they suffered we also rejoice for their souls, because we believe they endured to the end and received imperishable crowns of martyrdom.

     So while I definitely believe there is ample evidence of the truth of Christianity, I would also say that is not the most compelling manifestation of the love of God and not the biggest reason why I personally believe. I understand that what I have expressed is not falsifiable and not persuasive to someone who is not already convinced to believe, but it is how I am able to look at the world and not see it as being a cruel and uncaring place.

     Hope that helps!
Logged
RFayette
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,952
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2021, 10:57:53 PM »
« Edited: November 27, 2021, 11:01:10 PM by Based Judge Schroeder »

To add onto what PiT said, I really do recommend Craig Keener.  His 2-volume set Miracles really does a lot to show examples of everything from healed blindness to instant burn healing as a result of prayer.  A lot of Christian apologists shy away from evidence for miracles in the modern day due to the association with shysters and televangelists, but there really is a lot of testimonial evidence from around the world for dramatic healings associated with Christian prayer and mission.  What I think makes Keener's case particularly compelling is that the most dramatic miracles tend to occur in areas that are just hearing the gospel for the first time - this is consistent with a God who is interested in reaching people who are genuinely open and have not yet heard the gospel.  

Admittedly, Keener's work is kind of expensive but here is a good taste of what you will see in his book.  

I also agree with PiT that this is likely not be the most powerful reason to have faith on a personal level, but I do believe that from a purely rational, empirical point of view this evidence from miracle testimony (often with medical documentation!) carries serious weight.  
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,805


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2021, 11:00:22 PM »

You're overintellectualizing it.

Want to more, and it'll come to you.
Logged
DaleCooper
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,851


P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2021, 07:17:02 PM »

I found peace once I came to the realization that all of the world's ancient mythology is simply man looking for an explanation to life's unanswerable questions. You can appreciate the Bible (or anything else) as a book of wisdom without believing that it is the literal and inerrant word of God. It's crucial to accept that there are things you'll simply never know for sure.
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,321
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2021, 02:30:24 PM »

Yes Alben, please watch some Craig Keener. Nothing is more certain to solidify your nonbelief for the foreseeable future.
Logged
Statilius the Epicurean
Thersites
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,596
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2021, 02:00:28 PM »

You're overintellectualizing it.

Want to more, and it'll come to you.

Just turn your brain off, bro.
Logged
Del Tachi
Republican95
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,711
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: 1.46

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2021, 03:40:48 PM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.
Logged
Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,023
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2021, 08:52:47 PM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

Couldn’t this apply to any other religion though?
Logged
If my soul was made of stone
discovolante
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,261
United States


Political Matrix
E: -8.13, S: -5.57

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2021, 09:41:39 PM »

It's important to hold a critical perspective regarding the institutions and principles that men have created to surround faith, but not to let it color the root of one's faith. If you want to hold earnest and uncritical faith, you must find love for the divine and cultivate it, ground yourself in it. From there you will find the will to believe with your rational faculties what your instincts know, and for you to better understand your relationship to the ways that we honor divinity and carry out its will.

I can only speak from my own experience, but this is how I crossed the gap between desiring faith and holding faith.
Logged
Del Tachi
Republican95
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,711
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.52, S: 1.46

P P P

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2021, 09:55:39 AM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

Couldn’t this apply to any other religion though?

Peter and James were eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus who apparently never recanted their faith before being put to death for it.  This makes them different from later Christian and Muslim martyrs, who certainly had sincere beliefs, but based their faith on secondhand testimony. 
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,835


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2021, 11:37:32 AM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

People die for their beliefs all the time, regardless of it's rationality or it's 'truth'. People will die for a lie, even if held sincerely. I don't think it's a very good apologist argument.
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,321
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2021, 12:29:25 PM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

People die for their beliefs all the time, regardless of it's rationality or it's 'truth'. People will die for a lie, even if held sincerely. I don't think it's a very good apologist argument.

But afleitch, why would Ashley Babbitt sacrifice herself if the election wasn't actually stolen?
Logged
DaleCooper
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,851


P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2021, 01:01:06 PM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

Couldn’t this apply to any other religion though?

Peter and James were eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus who apparently never recanted their faith before being put to death for it.  This makes them different from later Christian and Muslim martyrs, who certainly had sincere beliefs, but based their faith on secondhand testimony. 

I was under the impression that all of the surviving accounts of the apostles' executions were based on secondhand testimony and were from around about 100AD or maybe 90 at the earliest. I don't know that it's possible or accurate to cite their belief in the resurrection specifically as the cause of their executions, but it's a fair enough assumption. However, I don't think it's possible to confirm them being eyewitnesses to the resurrection since the accounts of their interaction with a resurrected Jesus were also written decades after the alleged incident. I think the only exception to this is one of Paul's epistles (also secondhand testimony) that mentions Peter being the first witness of a resurrected Jesus, followed by James and others.
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2021, 02:25:47 AM »

Yes Alben, please watch some Craig Keener. Nothing is more certain to solidify your nonbelief for the foreseeable future.
Keener is amazingly fun to read - his brilliant commentaries on Acts and John especially. His three books on miracles (he came out with a new one this year that’s much cheaper) are fascinating and have been endorsed by a wide variety of scholars, most notably by Dale Allison.

He does have ADHD, which can make it difficult to listen to him speak for some people. Here is a video of his, for example, wherein he appears to be wearing a hoody just over his head, pulled down below his eyebrows, but doesn’t have his arms in it. He’s a brilliant scholar, though, and his grasp of philosophical argumentation and secondary literature is amazing.
Logged
John Dule
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,321
United States


Political Matrix
E: 6.57, S: -7.50

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2021, 11:18:27 AM »

Yes Alben, please watch some Craig Keener. Nothing is more certain to solidify your nonbelief for the foreseeable future.
Keener is amazingly fun to read - his brilliant commentaries on Acts and John especially. His three books on miracles (he came out with a new one this year that’s much cheaper) are fascinating and have been endorsed by a wide variety of scholars, most notably by Dale Allison.

He does have ADHD, which can make it difficult to listen to him speak for some people. Here is a video of his, for example, wherein he appears to be wearing a hoody just over his head, pulled down below his eyebrows, but doesn’t have his arms in it. He’s a brilliant scholar, though, and his grasp of philosophical argumentation and secondary literature is amazing.

Oh, definitely. I think every nonbeliever should watch his stuff in order to get the best possible impression of Christians.
Logged
Donerail
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,345
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2021, 01:23:52 PM »

The music is nice.
Logged
Mopsus
MOPolitico
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.71, S: -1.65

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2021, 06:40:26 PM »

Evidence from the martyrdom of the Apostles.  The historical record is strong in suggesting that Peter and James (at least) were put to death for their belief in a resurrected Jesus, which seems unlikely if they had made the whole thing up.

People die for their beliefs all the time, regardless of it's rationality or it's 'truth'. People will die for a lie, even if held sincerely. I don't think it's a very good apologist argument.

But afleitch, why would Ashley Babbitt sacrifice herself if the election wasn't actually stolen?

Ashley Babbitt wasn't the one who came up with the idea that the election was stolen. In this case Donald Trump would be the Peter/James analogue, and you'll note that he wasn't exactly leading from the front on 1/6...
Logged
Boobs
HCP
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,510


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2021, 10:51:00 PM »

Read Marianne Williamson A Return To Love
Logged
Vice President Christian Man
Christian Man
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,346
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.94, S: -2.26

P P P

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2021, 02:11:06 AM »

I recommend you watching some faith-based testimonies and miracle videos on YouTube. You might change your mind after.
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2021, 12:50:16 PM »

Oh, definitely. I think every nonbeliever should watch his stuff in order to get the best possible impression of Christians.
The irony of sardonic mockery including a suggestion that the person being mocked gives a bad impression of Christians must fly over your head.

I watched the speech he did at Biola I think you’ve said you watched and laughed at, and I find it difficult to believe someone watched that and didn’t seriously question their prior beliefs. I was rather sympathetic to cessationism for a long time before discovering Keener, and he transformed my theological thoughts on miracles. To pretend that the bias of your own culture is self-evidently true and not in need of arguments in its favor because it’s obviously true is to assert that one’s beliefs are unjustified.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.056 seconds with 12 queries.