Portuguese parents are worried because their children are learning Brazilian
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November 29, 2021, 03:27:09 PM

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  Portuguese parents are worried because their children are learning Brazilian
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Author Topic: Portuguese parents are worried because their children are learning Brazilian  (Read 481 times)
buritobr
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« on: November 25, 2021, 06:22:30 PM »

Brazil has 213M inhabitants. Portugal has 10M, the population of the municipality of São Paulo. So, Brazil is the biggest Portuguese speaking country. Portugal has a higher per capita income, but there are at least 60M Brazilians who have income similar to the Portuguese one. So, most of the Portuguese speaking content in the Internet is in Brazilian Portuguese and not European Portuguese.
An article in a Portuguese newspaper told that the Portuguese parents are worried because due to the Covid restrictions, their children stayed at home watching Youtube videos produced by Brazilians. They started to speak like the Brazilians: speaking "grama" instead of "relva" (for grass), "ônibus" instead of "autocarro" (for bus), "geladeira" instead of "frigorífico" (for refrigerator).
A Portuguese teacher told this concern is not new. There was already influence of Brazilian Portuguese in Portugal through the TV soap operas. There were also the Walt Disney comics, whose translation in Portuguese was done in Brazilian Portuguese.

The link to the article (in Portuguese, for those who understand) https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/ha-criancas-portuguesas-que-so-falam-brasileiro-14292845.html
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GlobeSoc
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2021, 07:25:22 PM »

It's unlikely, but it would be hilarious if Portugal became a Brazilian satellite
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Big Abraham
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« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2021, 08:40:44 PM »

Sort of like how North American linguistic mannerisms now dominate the discourse in the Anglosphere.

The colony becomes the empire.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2021, 09:51:16 PM »
« Edited: November 25, 2021, 09:55:57 PM by Red Velvet »

This is because there’s much more Portuguese content on the internet coming from Brazil, especially on YouTube, so the kids end up watching Brazilian content and catching Brazilian accent and also some of the BR Portuguese words that are different from EU Portuguese (ex: ônibus instead of autocarro).

While I understand cultural and language protectionism in some cases (not wanting it to disappear, like what happens with Indigenous groups), I think people are largely exaggerating their worries in this situation. Like the news said, this always comes when some Brazilian content gets widely seen in Portugal, it was the same thing with the soap operas. EU Portuguese isn’t under any risk just because their kids are watching Brazilian YouTubers content. I also hate how some act like theirs is the “correct” version of the language and look down on the Portuguese kids talking with Brazilian accent as if they were saying some dirty or wrong language. It’s all Portuguese anyway, there’s no correct version!

If I had a child who started talking with the Portugal accent I would think it is actually quite charming lol, the European Portuguese accent always sounds so formal and ultra-polite to me. This actually reminds me of the many different accents we have on Brazil and the prejudice we even see on the inside with some of them (Northeastern accent is looked down by Southerners) and that’s dumb. All different ways of speaking the language are correct.

It’s sad to me to read this because you don’t see that kind of stuff happening in the anglophone world, the British embraced and get along with people using the US English pretty well for example. Too bad the lusophone community as a whole isn’t as united.
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2021, 12:43:02 AM »

It’s sad to me to read this because you don’t see that kind of stuff happening in the anglophone world, the British embraced and get along with people using the US English pretty well for example. Too bad the lusophone community as a whole isn’t as united.

Canadians are prickly when they see product labels spelled in the US convention rather than the British/Canadian convention. So much so, that writing in the US convention leads to embarrassment.

Here's a question for Brazilians: the British accent (stereotypical "proper" one) is seen as sexy in the US, so that a British man visiting a bar in the US is sure to pick up lots of ladies. Is the same thing true in Brazil with the Portuguese accent?
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EastAnglianLefty
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2021, 06:30:25 AM »

In an Anglophone context, there was also this: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/jul/19/peppa-pig-american-kids-british-accents

Are there any similar stories from Quebec?
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Mike88
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2021, 07:00:24 AM »

This is just clickbait stories, IMO. Portuguese Brazilian content has been hidespreed in Portugal since the 70's, with the soap opera phenomenon. In the 70's, the Gabriela soap opera was so popular, that Parliamentary debates were even interrupted just for MPs to watch the soap opera. Other very popular soap operas were Roque Santeiro, and in the late 90's, early 2000's, Malhação was also a major hit with young people, myself included.

So, this is just, like I said, clickbait. Like Red Velvet says, there's much more Portuguese Brazilian content on the internet than European Portuguese content, so it's natural that young people are more knowledgeable of the Portuguese Brazilian words.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2021, 07:58:03 AM »

It’s sad to me to read this because you don’t see that kind of stuff happening in the anglophone world, the British embraced and get along with people using the US English pretty well for example. Too bad the lusophone community as a whole isn’t as united.

Canadians are prickly when they see product labels spelled in the US convention rather than the British/Canadian convention. So much so, that writing in the US convention leads to embarrassment.

Here's a question for Brazilians: the British accent (stereotypical "proper" one) is seen as sexy in the US, so that a British man visiting a bar in the US is sure to pick up lots of ladies. Is the same thing true in Brazil with the Portuguese accent?

Idk about sexier, it may sound more formal and old school to Brazilians. As if the person was too concerned about being polite. There’s some people who may find this sexier, some who may not just like the opposite could be true. That’s more subjectively personal.

Portuguese language evolved a lot in Brazil and it was naturally closer to the European Portuguese at the start because well, that was the version brought here by the immigrants. If you read 19th century Brazilian literature you will notice verbal conjugation was closer to the way Portugal speaks than Brazil nowadays for example. That’s why Brazilians might have the impression the Portuguese accent is more formal (or even snobbish in more negative perceptions). Meanwhile, I guess the Portuguese see the Brazilian accent as more casual and laid-back (or lazy and uneducated in cases of more negative perception).

If someone wants to say they’re watching something, Portuguese would use something like “estou a ver” while Brazilians would say “estou vendo”. Like, the Portuguese first will present the verb with the “a” while Brazilians will combine everything with one word. That’s what makes it sound more formal to a Brazilian.

Portuguese also put more emphasis on the consonants while speaking, while Brazilians are much more vowel-oriented. The European Portuguese sounds more poetic and serious in my opinion, while the Brazilian Portuguese sounds more musical and relaxed.

Some words are also different between the two places. But those differences happen on a regional scale too (there are variations of Brazilian Portuguese inside Brazil like I said). Usually what people internationally perceive as the Brazilian way of speaking is mostly the Rio de Janeiro accent because of the telenovelas (which mostly happen to be set or at least be produced in Rio with actors from there).
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CumbrianLeftie
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2021, 10:46:04 AM »

It was once forecast that English and "American" would be different languages by now.

So maybe this is a fuss about nothing.
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exnaderite
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2021, 06:12:31 PM »


No one in Quebec fears a displacement by the French accent. Most media consumed in Quebec is locally made, or dubbed by a Quebec accent.
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Mopolis
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2021, 07:32:34 PM »

It’s sad to me to read this because you don’t see that kind of stuff happening in the anglophone world, the British embraced and get along with people using the US English pretty well for example. Too bad the lusophone community as a whole isn’t as united.

Canadians are prickly when they see product labels spelled in the US convention rather than the British/Canadian convention. So much so, that writing in the US convention leads to embarrassment.

Here's a question for Brazilians: the British accent (stereotypical "proper" one) is seen as sexy in the US, so that a British man visiting a bar in the US is sure to pick up lots of ladies. Is the same thing true in Brazil with the Portuguese accent?

Idk about sexier, it may sound more formal and old school to Brazilians. As if the person was too concerned about being polite. There’s some people who may find this sexier, some who may not just like the opposite could be true. That’s more subjectively personal.

Portuguese language evolved a lot in Brazil and it was naturally closer to the European Portuguese at the start because well, that was the version brought here by the immigrants. If you read 19th century Brazilian literature you will notice verbal conjugation was closer to the way Portugal speaks than Brazil nowadays for example. That’s why Brazilians might have the impression the Portuguese accent is more formal (or even snobbish in more negative perceptions). Meanwhile, I guess the Portuguese see the Brazilian accent as more casual and laid-back (or lazy and uneducated in cases of more negative perception).

If someone wants to say they’re watching something, Portuguese would use something like “estou a ver” while Brazilians would say “estou vendo”. Like, the Portuguese first will present the verb with the “a” while Brazilians will combine everything with one word. That’s what makes it sound more formal to a Brazilian.

Portuguese also put more emphasis on the consonants while speaking, while Brazilians are much more vowel-oriented. The European Portuguese sounds more poetic and serious in my opinion, while the Brazilian Portuguese sounds more musical and relaxed.

Some words are also different between the two places. But those differences happen on a regional scale too (there are variations of Brazilian Portuguese inside Brazil like I said). Usually what people internationally perceive as the Brazilian way of speaking is mostly the Rio de Janeiro accent because of the telenovelas (which mostly happen to be set or at least be produced in Rio with actors from there).

To my American ear, Brazilian Portuguese sounds like a mixture of Spanish and French, while European Portuguese sounds like Latin and some Scandinavian language.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2021, 08:07:12 PM »

To my American ear, Brazilian Portuguese sounds like a mixture of Spanish and French, while European Portuguese sounds like Latin and some Scandinavian language.

The European Portuguese pronunciation actually reminds me a bit of Russian.

I feel like the Portuguese are able to understand most of spoken Brazilian Portuguese, but Brazilians have a harsher time understanding most of European Portuguese at least in their first experiences. But once you familiarize your ear with it, it’s not really hard at all unless they start speaking too fast.

This video shows some of the few differences in words/expressions, with the female Brazilian interviewer talking with a Portuguese guy:



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buritobr
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2021, 10:48:30 PM »

It’s sad to me to read this because you don’t see that kind of stuff happening in the anglophone world, the British embraced and get along with people using the US English pretty well for example. Too bad the lusophone community as a whole isn’t as united.

Canadians are prickly when they see product labels spelled in the US convention rather than the British/Canadian convention. So much so, that writing in the US convention leads to embarrassment.

Here's a question for Brazilians: the British accent (stereotypical "proper" one) is seen as sexy in the US, so that a British man visiting a bar in the US is sure to pick up lots of ladies. Is the same thing true in Brazil with the Portuguese accent?

Yes, I think we have similar view. And I propose a rule: in English speaking films dubbed in Portuguese, British English actors and actresses should be dubbed in Portuguese from Portugal.



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buritobr
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2021, 10:53:09 PM »

Some historians consider the hypothesis that the language spoken in Portugal in the Middle Ages and in the early Modern Age was close to Brazilian Portuguese. The modern European Portuguese was created in the late Modern Age, when Portuguese people started to speak in a fancier way. Of course, there is no recording of people speaking centuries ago. But there are some clues. The poems of Luís de Camões (1524-1580) have a much better melody when spoken in Brazilian Portuguese than in modern European Portuguese.

There is also this hypothesis concerning English. The language spoken in England in the Middle Ages and in the early Modern Age might be close to the American English.
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Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2021, 01:52:53 AM »

Some historians consider the hypothesis that the language spoken in Portugal in the Middle Ages and in the early Modern Age was close to Brazilian Portuguese. The modern European Portuguese was created in the late Modern Age, when Portuguese people started to speak in a fancier way. Of course, there is no recording of people speaking centuries ago. But there are some clues. The poems of Luís de Camões (1524-1580) have a much better melody when spoken in Brazilian Portuguese than in modern European Portuguese.

There is also this hypothesis concerning English. The language spoken in England in the Middle Ages and in the early Modern Age might be close to the American English.

I have seen it claimed that the Southern US accent is a more direct descendant of the way 17th century English people talked than the RP accent or most other British accents.
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tack50
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2021, 07:15:28 AM »

I find this really interesting given that there is no such phenomenon happening here with variations of Spanish spoken in Latin America, not even in clickbait articles.

I guess it could be that Latin American Spanish isn't really a unified accent at all (Mexican Spanish and Argentinian Spanish are nothing alike) plus possibly Spain having a bigger population than Portugal? Idk
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parochial boy
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2021, 08:12:50 AM »

If this was a thing that happened then you would have expected Swiss French to have died out decades ago, seeing as it is culturally swamped and demographically outweighed 40 to 1 by the larger neighbour. If anything people are tending to use régionalisms more and more, in particular as a sort of identitarian backlash against the perceived domination of the French. But even then, I still semi-regularly discover that there are words or phrases that I use that the French don’t understand at all, and certain linguistic developments have happened in Swiss French (the disappearance of the schwa for example) unintentionally and without any real input from the French.

In any case these things are complicated because there clearly are influences. For example the rolled R has basically disappeared from Québécois French and been replaced by the European guttural one. Even while other differences have been maintained or even newly emerged. Similar with English, eg even in the UK a billion now basically means am American billion; but the word soccer has almost died out, even when it was in regular use 30-40 years ago.

Tldr these things are complicated, yes you have an influence but as long as linguistic communities live in different places and mostly interact inside of those communities you will maintain distinct regional ways of speak. At the end of the day people are just complaining that they don’t like the fact that languages change just like they always have done.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2021, 08:30:27 AM »
« Edited: November 27, 2021, 08:38:47 AM by Red Velvet »

I find this really interesting given that there is no such phenomenon happening here with variations of Spanish spoken in Latin America, not even in clickbait articles.

I guess it could be that Latin American Spanish isn't really a unified accent at all (Mexican Spanish and Argentinian Spanish are nothing alike) plus possibly Spain having a bigger population than Portugal? Idk

There is such a thing, although it might have lesser, bigger or the same proportions. Probably many different factors. Spain doesn’t consume as much content produced in Mexico or Argentina in the same way like Portugal consumes Brazilian ones. If it did, I’m pretty sure it would be a thing too because there’s some level of language pride and protectionism too. The Portugal population being smaller also stimulates more these reactions.

But Spain also has multiple different languages inside of it, Galego, Basque, Catalan… Even though some of those were repressed during Spanish dictatorship, Spain maybe has developed by force some adaptability to different accents and languages. The fact there’s multiple Spanish speaking countries also stimulates this kind of perception

That doesn’t mean this doesn’t exist on Spain though. Like I said, I’ve seen examples of protectionism. I remember there was some controversy that came around when the movie Coco came out for example and it was released in Spain with the Latin American dubbing. Some people (likely same way in this clickbait report) complained about it and said they weren’t going to watch the film because of that.

I was surprised when I heard this, like an open prejudice against the Mexican Spanish. It’s very different from Portugal, which always openly consumed tons of Brazilian media, or even UK with American one, without this type of boycott reaction. Like, the Portuguese are boycotting Brazilian YouTubers ONLY AFTER their kids start talking like them lol

So I remember thinking (but that was only a theory) that Spain might actually be even MORE protectionist, because of lesser exposure to one single different way of speaking, which makes them more comfortable with seeing and treating their accent as the “pattern” to be followed. Or at least it’s around the same level, but gets diluted because of the multiple variations of Latino Spanish.

Another thing, although it might be only a perception of mine and not really true. Latino Spanish and European Spanish are way more similar between themselves than Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese are.
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