SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed) (user search)
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  SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed) (search mode)
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Author Topic: SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed)  (Read 7390 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« on: November 23, 2021, 07:21:55 PM »

The wording of clause one is riding the line of inappropriate for the legislative branch.

As for the second clause it should be so fortunate that I am at work on lunch and I am not inclined to dismantle this via phone.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 01:08:45 AM »
« Edited: November 24, 2021, 12:40:59 PM by Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee »

Quote
LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him

This is a dangerous overreach into the judicial powers by the legislative branch and only narrowly skirts Bill of Attainder status. While it is in the purview of the Senate express matters of opinion on a whole host of issues spanning the globe, including reflecting on the actions of both the executive and legislative branches as such, it is quite another to intercede by partisan fashion of the legislature to express an opinion on the proceedings of judiciary especially in a criminal case, which is suppose to be independent of such partisan and legislative influence. We do not vote on criminal verdicts and for good reason, therefore under no circumstances will I entertain voting for a resolution that contains this language as displayed above.

Quote
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing,

This may come as a shock to the incensed partisans of Labor, outraged at the intrusion into their affairs, but fortunately for everyone, the whims of the incensed do not determine matters of law.

To put it simply, "the evidence I have seen" does not meet the standard for doxxing in terms of IRL standards at least (at least in terms of the multiple articles I read on the subject during the course of last summer) because it is missing a key element to establishing that such occurred. That is the person being targeted is exposed (in an x=y sort of fashion) or blackmailed with exposure to achieve some kind of discernible effect. At no point (in the transcript shown to me) does LT ever expose a poster by saying X is Y do z with this information. Nor has anyone claimed that LT PMed X saying "I know you are Y do z or else". He does pose an open question, which is never answered and thankfully no one did because as written, anyone answering that question would be just as vulnerable under "Atlasian Law" as LT, and likewise for whoever gave LT the link to the spreadsheet in the first place.

Quote
(n) Doxxing. This offense shall be defined as the disclosal of the personal information of any user of the Atlas Forum either obtained illegally or posted against their will by a citizen of Atlasia.

The way the Atlasian law is written is more expansive and even too expansive really. For one is says "Any user of the Atlas forum", which enters a can of worms with regards to Atlas as it relates to the forum as a whole. In the old days it was seen as inclusive of the whole forum community, but that has not been really accepted in probably more than 12 years as such. Furthermore, I don't see us really having much need to interfere in a situation where say someone in game doxes OC, but the doxxed individual is not and the matter has nothing to do with Atlasia. That would be a matter for the forum administration and the legal authorities to handle obviously. I think that probably should at minimum be reduced to "Atlasian citizen" as well, because we don't have an interest in fake prosecuting someone for matters that don't relate to the game.

The second problem here and the one that matters for our purposes tonight, is that the wording takes a shotgun approach in terms of expansiveness. Let's say someone randomly posts my first  name here. Doesn't say it is NC Yankee's real name, just posts it. It could be their own name, it could be someone else name, it could be a real life person. Doesn't matter under this wording, congrats, you get a guilty. Even if it is there their own first name or something else, they posted my name without my permission, they can be prosecuted.

Now let's say you counter that these are extreme cases, okay, but then what is the limiting factor? Extreme cases is an arbitrary line to draw. "NC Yankee's real name is x" is the best one and the one we have precedent for. After Hamilton was banned people would go post Hamilton is X and X is Y repeatedly to try and get it captured by the Google searches. That is a good definition of doxxing in action that happened right here on the forum in 2010.

Had this gone to trial and this was why I asked to be removed from the Jury, was because I advised LT to challenge the constitutionality of the law itself or at least the wording present in it. I also advised he reach out to people who might be able to best make the case against what is arguably, a horribly written statute, in court. Unfortunately none were available to do so, nor was anyone else for that matter.


Quote
hacking into a party's discord server,

No one to my knowledge has alleged that that LT hacked anyone's discord account to gain access to the the Laborite discord server. Had this been the case, LT would have been certainly banned from discord I would think and likely would have gotten a stiffer penalty on this site as well. However, no one has previous to this point (unless I have missed something) alleged this, nor has any evidence been presented that proves such.

Instead, I was under the impression that it was widely acknowledged that someone already with access to the discord server in question voluntarily handed over the link to LT, which if correct again puts them in jeopardy under the current Atlasian law's broad language (see above) and furthermore obviously refutes any notion that this was a "hacking".

We have had examples of entry to accounts being obtained on the RPP private forum and with regards to at least two Atlas accounts (one in 2009 and another in 2015), that I am aware of and the last two resulted in bans from the site (one for several months and the latter was permanent).
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2021, 12:47:54 PM »

I object to the amendment by WD, as it makes even more declarative statements regarding accusations, one of which has yet to be substantiated (see my previous post).
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2021, 07:43:48 PM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2021, 12:29:14 PM »

Nay

Though I do approve of the removal of the even more outlandish charges. I have issues with the scope of the language of the underlying law and while some other "test" may be applied that works to LT having committed doxxing without at the same time ensnaring a bunch of other scenarios, the one that has some precedent doesn't do that. I went into more detail on these matters earlier in the thread.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2021, 07:18:30 PM »

Ishan really would do well to more clearly discern what amendment is being voted on. Perhaps including the text being voted on in the post opening the vote.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2021, 02:41:24 AM »


Doesn't look like it.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2021, 08:06:36 PM »

The vote on Wulfric's amendment has begun.

Was this ever sponsored by a Senator?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2021, 12:25:02 AM »

Tired of seeing confusion and being confused myself

This is the situation from my read:

Quote from: Amendment s106:13 by Cao for Dwarven Dragon
LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

Sponsor Feedback: Unknown - was this hostile or was it objected to?
Status: Vote underway since December 08, 2021, 09:38:13 AM
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2021, 12:28:11 AM »

So about that confusion part, I forgot who wrote this. Tongue

How can something be consensual and unauthorized?

I mean Johnny Cash had a rather good song called "Accidentally on purpose" but we aren't in the music industry here. Tongue
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2021, 12:32:53 AM »

Can we get a clarification of how the bill looks with that amendment? It's working with the pre-ishan amendment version so it's unclear whether it's bringing those parts back or not.

Ishan's amendment, according to the message where he introduced it, was meant to replace the bill, so presumably the current text includes only that. I'd like to get Ishan's confirmation however.

If the current amendment contradicts the previous one. When that happens the amendment sponsor of the subsequent one should revise and re offer if practicable, unless he intends to substantially reverse the previously past amendment obviously.

Of course we have not had this problem as much recently, as amendments are fewer in number and spaced out to make this kind of thing less likely. But back in 2013-2014 and 2011 it was a frequent occurrence.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2021, 02:11:30 AM »
« Edited: December 09, 2021, 02:17:25 AM by Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee »

Tired of seeing confusion and being confused myself

This is the situation from my read:

Quote from: Amendment s106:13 by Cao for Dwarven Dragon
LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

Sponsor Feedback: Unknown - was this hostile or was it objected to?
Status: Vote underway since December 08, 2021, 09:38:13 AM

"Consensual unauthorized" means that LT intentionally obtained internal party info and was not authorized to have that info. It is consent with respect to LT not with respect to Labor.

Technically, the simple act of a Labor member surprise pming a Fed laborcord stuff is giving the Fed unauthorized access. But more than that happened here. LT explicitly sought out such information and people who would give it to him, and ordered them to do just that. Thus consensual is designed to make that clear - LT did not obtain Labor info inadvertently- he willfully sought it out.

Still dubious on the word consensual as that word implies "consent" or "permission". The word you probably desire here is "actively" or "assertively" in contrast to "passively acquired".

Also, my amendment was never objected to, so I guess it passed by voice on November 29? And then got stripped out by Ishan's Substitute Amendment? And now we're voting to just put back the words "Consensual unauthorized" without also bringing back the rest of the original text?

Or if all amendments go to a recorded vote regardless of feedback, then as Ishan's amendment was a substitute, it probably should have been moved to the end of the vote series, and my amendment voted on immediately after Western's. But too late now lol.

Dwarven, with all do respect, and I will try to convey these sentiments as tactfully as I can but when it comes to chamber administration, I find your understanding of how it works and your subsequent recommendations and suggestions based on this "knowledge" to be a complete and utter disaster of biblical proportions stemming from helping foist the assigned slot fiasco on the House to the recent matters in Lincoln. I would suggest examining carefully such recommendations in the future, because, as I am practically the "Godfather" of responsible chamber administration in this game, you frequently induce me to want to smash my head into a cinder block wall and that should speak volumes.

So let me put this succinctly as I can for your sake and everyone else's so that you may avoid future embarrassment. Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING should be taken to have happened in this chamber unless the PPT or Deputy PPT says it has. Nothing passes, nothing is "voiced", nothing is emanated in the penumbras so to speak. The reason for this is quite obvious, in order to maintain accessibility to the outside world and to the members themselves, to avoid confusion and error on the part of the members and ensure the efficiency of the legislative branch, it is incumbent upon the administrator to affirmatively state in declarative fashion what has occurred at each stage.

Unless the PPT called for objections, or opened a vote, the amendment has not been acted upon.

Secondly, amendments are always processed in the order in which they are taken up.

Thirdly, even aside from amendment was affirmatively stated has having been offered following Ishan's by Cao when introduced on your behalf.

Fourthly, amendments don't go to vote unless judged hostile or objected to. If no one did, then Ishan defacto objected by opening the vote, which is again not the appropriate way to do that (discernibly stating matters is the preferred course over leaving stuff to be assumed)

It is possible to advance two amendments simultaneously provided they don't overlap and the PPT clearly and discernibly established which is which and minimizes confusion that such a process could entail.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2021, 01:09:55 PM »


The structures we have created over the years, or improved over the years, are designed to improve clarity and avoid confusion. However, we have gotten use to cutting corners in this era where "hands off" is the byword of play style from discordification and the AFE Board, to these matters over here.

While by itself it won't avoid this problem, the collapse of the amendment tracking tracking system was a contributing factor to this. Now at least amendments can be linked to and have an identifying number beyond Ishan's amendment, WD's amendment and so one.

Another was opening votes with such vague references and not including the text in the post starting the vote. Granted I got away from this format at times myself but on a bill like this with multiple amendments and such it is necessary.

Lastly, acknowledging the content of the next amendment would substantially reverse the previous one and seek to ascertain whether the sponsor desires revision to incorporate the new text or wants to plunge ahead and sometimes that is appropriate if in their view and the view of the majority it threw the baby out with the bath water. Conversely if its a quixotic attempt with no hope of succeeding, at some point you have to consider the PPT's powers to axe frivolous amendments at least with subsequent attempts at it.

Another means by which to address a similar situation, though not effective here, is to curtail the included elements in an amendment, especially if the conflict derives from the mere inclusion of the entire text but isn't actually being acted upon. Though this does put more work on the PPT/Deputy since they have to cut and reassemble the text more. That wouldn't work here since s106:09 by Ishan replaced the entire text anyway.

Is the current text of the resolution the amendment offered by Ishan?

I think but seeing as how I missed Cao's post initially myself, I would not rule out some unfortunate surprise in this thread's previous pages.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2021, 12:29:30 PM »

At some point extenders aren't enough to save you. The big mistake you can make, biggest mistake as PPT is to let this stuff get ahead of you otherwise it will snowball and flatten you.

1. Keep the notice board links up to date even if not the status and times. Then you have the full picture in one page of what needs to happen. Then just click through them.

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

3. You tried dedicated DM and it didn't work. We now have a Senate discord and mis votes are at a worse point than ever before. When are you kids gonna realize Discord is a fing hospice unit not Monday/Asana or whatever that productivity software is called.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2021, 01:16:40 PM »

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2021, 01:28:26 PM »

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?

Oh yeah, hold on about that, the noticeboard is coming up in a couple minutes.

The Senate is really lucky that between procrastination and Red Bull I’m willing to bulldoze through all this on mobile.

How? How can anyone do this on mobile?

Aside from minor procedural acts, I always had to be at my desktop. Tongue
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2021, 06:14:10 PM »

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?

Oh yeah, hold on about that, the noticeboard is coming up in a couple minutes.

The Senate is really lucky that between procrastination and Red Bull I’m willing to bulldoze through all this on mobile.

How? How can anyone do this on mobile?

Aside from minor procedural acts, I always had to be at my desktop. Tongue

Procrastination and Red Bull, duh.

So red bull gives you keyboard and mouse along with the wings?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2021, 01:25:03 AM »

So, is this adopted if no one objected?

Unless Cao called for objections, no.

One of the primary reasons why you cannot infer passage absent administrative intervention is because the PPT has the authority to toss frivolous and the like amendments. Therefore under the rules it is not possible for an amendment to be considered absent PPT acknowledgement.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2021, 02:21:44 AM »

So, is this adopted if no one objected?

Unless Cao called for objections, no.

One of the primary reasons why you cannot infer passage absent administrative intervention is because the PPT has the authority to toss frivolous and the like amendments. Therefore under the rules it is not possible for an amendment to be considered absent PPT acknowledgement.

The amendment that I sponsored is not frivolous, so I'm confused. Anyways, I thought amendments aren't formally acted on unless sponsored by a Senator. So any of Wulfric's amendments that weren't sponsored, shouldn't be considered, no?

I didn't say that it was frivolous. I said that because the PPT has the power to declare them so, they have to acknowledged each amendment in some form at minimum.

1. All amendments have to be sponsored by a sitting Senator
2. All amendments must be acknowledged by the presiding officer
3. No amendment will be passed unless voted on or via objection period
4. No amendment should be considered passed unless the presiding officer says it has.

There should not be divination or inference as to what is going on at any given moment. It should be clearly stated.

"Amendment X:XX has been adopted". "The vote on Amendment Y:YY has passed/rejected."
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2021, 02:05:11 AM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2021, 06:39:35 PM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2022, 05:47:13 PM »

NAY

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2022, 12:34:12 AM »

Sound of Silence goes so well with the last few posts in this thread.
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