SR 106-09: LouisvilleThunder Resolution (Passed)

[Joseph Cao]

Nay.

This is a seriously inappropriate amendment as Yankee has already mentioned, not least because it now explicitly accuses LT of doing things that even Wulfric has said do not apply to him in the strictest sense.

As far as the wider bill goes I will simply say that "should have been found guilty" is so far out of our wheelhouse it might as well be hitching a ride on Voyager 1, which is the main problem with WD's apparent philosophy of "we can come to a definite conclusion on any matter we want."

hacking into a party's discord server,

No one to my knowledge has alleged that that LT hacked anyone's discord account to gain access to the the Laborite discord server. Had this been the case, LT would have been certainly banned from discord I would think and likely would have gotten a stiffer penalty on this site as well. However, no one has previous to this point (unless I have missed something) alleged this, nor has any evidence been presented that proves such.

Instead, I was under the impression that it was widely acknowledged that someone already with access to the discord server in question voluntarily handed over the link to LT, which if correct again puts them in jeopardy under the current Atlasian law's broad language (see above) and furthermore obviously refutes any notion that this was a "hacking".

We have had examples of entry to accounts being obtained on the RPP private forum and with regards to at least two Atlas accounts (one in 2009 and another in 2015), that I am aware of and the last two resulted in bans from the site (one for several months and the latter was permanent).

Guess I should clarify what is being referred to here. I'm not referring to LT having legit hacked into another person's account in terms of guessing their password or similar. What I am referring to is him having people in Laborcord who send him stuff according to his orders, without Laborcord leaders consent or them even having any real knowledge that these accounts work for LT and not for them until it is too late. There have been admissions by Labor themselves of having to remove these "LT moles". It also cannot be ruled out that a sock of LT himself exists or existed on Laborcord.

If it would be helpful and appropriate I can gather some discord screenshots as evidence.

While this is not hacking in the most egregious sense, it is certainly using undercover and unethical means to gain access to information that honestly LT should not even know exists an ideal world. Further, LT is not some innocent bystander being sent this stuff by coincidence or finding it accidentally but has instead admitted he actively solicits such information.

Yeah, that's the main problem. Not hacking as defined, so why put that in the bill when saying something along the lines of "underhandedly gained access to private servers" or something would do instead?

The amendment I promised to replace this bill and forgot to introduce is this:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution
1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

Avoids the multitude of problems with the current amendment and is clearer and more direct, I'll give you that, but still presumes an action that is not borne out by legal reality.

[Joseph Cao]

Aye

Aye

Vote ain't open yet, and since one of you has the power to open it and tell everyone I'm inclined to think you know that. It should not be opened until the current vote ends and after Ishan's amendment is acted on. (Memo to Ishan, by the way, that vote ends at 8 p.m.)

Introducing the following amendment. If we are going to do this we may as well go full on bill of attainder.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of doxxing
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, having  unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of Breach of the Peace
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions, and sentences him to 6 months without the right to vote in elections in Atlasia + 1 year barred from holding office for the count of Breach of the Peace; plus 1 year without the right to vote plus 2 years barred from holding office for the count of doxxing.

Yes I know this is blatantly unconstitutional. No I don't care

Yeah, no. Again, the presiding officer has every right to strike down unconstitutional amendments from being considered. I don't know if that is me right now since Ishan has been active enough to propose an amendment and vote in a vote that isn't even open, but if it were up to me I certainly would not be bringing this amendment to the floor under any circumstances, "if we are going to do this we may as well use the Constitution to stuff our Thanksgiving turkey" notwithstanding.

[Joseph Cao]

By the way, in the interests of at least trying to clean up one small corner of this Augean stable, I will sponsor Wulfric's amendment. That will stay in the queue immediately behind Ishan's amendment.

[Joseph Cao]

Nay.

[Joseph Cao]

This is a massive mess and to be completely frank I'm not mentally up to sifting through all this right now. I will save untangling this Gordian knot for when I have the mental acuity to actually make a judgement on whatever has been happening, probably Friday morning or thereabouts.

It is entirely possible a revote may have to be held if the procedural car crash just upthread was bad enough.

[Joseph Cao]

This cleanup on aisle three was brought to you by Jardine Matheson, the government of Tamil Nadu, and the Democratic Action Party.

(The government of Hong Kong also wants to tell you all to vote. Not a word about what is being voted on, they just want you to vote or else the foreign agents win.)


Here is the amendment that constitutes the current text:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

Here is the original amendment that apparently invited Wulfric to insert some extremely suspect thoughts on parliamentary procedure into the record:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

In case anyone was not paying attention – and this thread has been such a waste of gray matter that I don’t blame them – Wulfric withdrew the amendment. The outcome of the vote is therefore moot. Although, for the record, assuming everyone knew what the vote actually was it was 1-4 with 13 senators not voting.

By the way, Wulfric, I am late to this but Ishan’s amendment came before yours and should have been acted before yours and it doesn’t matter what the text of either amendment says.

This was the amendment Wulfric proposed after withdrawing his original amendment:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, hacking into having consensual unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions.

I am not sponsoring this, by the way. Subsection 1 is still further out of our wheelhouse than Planet Nine, and like Planet Nine I am thoroughly unconvinced that it needs to exist.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

- It is the Sense of the Senate that Governor LouisvilleThunder should have been found guilty of the criminal charges filed against him. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of doxxing
- It is the further sense of the Senate that the actions of doxxing, having  unauthorized access to a party's discord server, and refusing to accept the results of an election, are never acceptable and dishonor the very fabric of the republic of Atlasia. Therefore, LouisvilleThunder shall be considered guilty of Breach of the Peace
- The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia hereby condemns Governor LouisvilleThunder for his aforementioned actions, and sentences him to 6 months without the right to vote in elections in Atlasia + 1 year barred from holding office for the count of Breach of the Peace; plus 1 year without the right to vote plus 2 years barred from holding office for the count of doxxing.

This was next on the queue. No it will not be acted on, take it up with Tack for doing unconstitutional stuff if anyone feels strongly enough about this decision to object.

[Joseph Cao]

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

[Joseph Cao]

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?

Oh yeah, hold on about that, the noticeboard is coming up in a couple minutes.

The Senate is really lucky that between procrastination and Red Bull I’m willing to bulldoze through all this on mobile.

[Joseph Cao]

2. Always keep the topic lines updated. It was second nature to always go back and update the op topic line. If it is by someone else, contact me I have no qualms about using edits for the integrity of the AFG board. If the topic lines are accurate it serves as a visual guide in place of the Noticeboard status and time information but you still need to keep those links accurate (see above) otherwise if you operate from AFG you are basically flying blind as to the full extent of the floor

Honestly those dozen Ishan threads are begging for this treatment right about now.

You got to know what is going on in the threads though. What do I put in for this one. Are we still at vote?

Oh yeah, hold on about that, the noticeboard is coming up in a couple minutes.

The Senate is really lucky that between procrastination and Red Bull I’m willing to bulldoze through all this on mobile.

How? How can anyone do this on mobile?

Aside from minor procedural acts, I always had to be at my desktop.

Procrastination and Red Bull, duh.

[Joseph Cao]

So, is this adopted if no one objected?

I didn't get my sanity scattered over three different continents to be told what is and isn't happening in the Senate that only one of us is a presiding officer for. The amendment should be formally acknowledged by such an officer, opened for objections, etc., before anything else happens.

So no, the 24 hours to object in fact starts now.

[Joseph Cao]

I will be objecting to the amendment.

[Joseph Cao]

A vote is open on Wulfric's amendment:

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.
2. The Senate further condemns him for his intentional, unauthorized pursuit of internal party information.
3. The Senate further condemns him for his refusal to accept the results of the June 2021 presidential election.

72 hours to vote; please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

[Joseph Cao]

Nay.

[Joseph Cao]

The amendment is adopted by a vote of 10-7-0-1.

Debate resumes.

[Joseph Cao]

Again, I will reiterate that what people are convinced of ≠ what the law says, and offer an amendment that take that consideration into account.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.
21. The Senate further condemns him LouisvilleThunder for his intentional, unauthorized pursuit of internal party information.
32. The Senate further condemns him for his refusal to accept the results of the June 2021 presidential election.

(Y'all also really need to better format these bills.)

[Joseph Cao]

Motioning for a final vote.

24 hours to object.

[Joseph Cao]

Unfortunately we are going to be moving to a vote either way, in this case a cloture vote.

The vote is open for 72 hours; Senators, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

[Joseph Cao]

Nay.

[Joseph Cao]

By a vote of 11-5-0-3, having attained a simple majority, cloture is invoked and we are now proceeding to a final vote.

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.
2. The Senate further condemns him for his intentional, unauthorized pursuit of internal party information.
3. The Senate further condemns him for his refusal to accept the results of the June 2021 presidential election.

72 hours to vote. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

[Joseph Cao]

Nay.

[Joseph Cao]

The resolution passes by a vote of 10-6-0-1.

[Joseph Cao]

LouisvilleThunder Resolution

1. The Senate of Atlasia condemns LouisvilleThunder for his doxxing of an Atlasian.
2. The Senate further condemns him for his intentional, unauthorized pursuit of internal party information.
3. The Senate further condemns him for his refusal to accept the results of the June 2021 presidential election.

Passed 10-6-0-1 in the Atlasian Senate assembled,


Joseph Cao, president pro tempore