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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1250 on: March 07, 2004, 04:59:05 AM »


Not bad... but Alabama and Arkansas will not go for Bush with over 60%, and I doubt that Mississippi will either.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #1251 on: March 07, 2004, 09:51:29 AM »


Any chance of California ever going Republican again?

Not in this election.  Even though Gore "only" won it by 11%, that's still a 650,000 vote swing needed to sway it to Bush.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1252 on: March 07, 2004, 10:35:41 AM »

I would contend the National Debt is really meaningless. Everyone carries debt, debt isnt always a bad thing. Only one president in US History has ever payed off the National Debt and no president will ever do it again. Americans are overtaxed and thats a fact, overtaxed by a questionable tax system in the first place. Get rid of the IRS and put in a national sales tax. So its ok the Clinton lied to a grand jury? Ok, if you ever get called for a grand jury and lie what are they going to do to you? Let you go free and clear? Doubtful. Perjury is criminal whether its lying about a blowjob or lying about murder. I bet you'd be the first the crucify Nixon though. I remember Travelgate, Whitewater, Filegate, Vince Foster and on and on. Bush didnt lie about Iraq, he stated what he believed, Kerry agreed with Bush before the start of the war. Sadam did have WMD and they are probably still in Iraq or in Syria. Anyone that says their are no WMD are lying to themselves and to the Americans. Some of those weapons they had that killed thousands you can fit into a tube that you can put in your pocket. So whats not to say they weren't snuck out or buried? What about all the weapons the US Soldiers have found buried since the war? They wouldnt bury the WMD which would be the most damning evidence against them? Just for example. Have the Europeans ever found all the art work and gold the Nazis hid in the Second World War?
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classical liberal
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« Reply #1253 on: March 07, 2004, 11:58:50 AM »

The only problem was that the economy got better too quickly for the stock market.  When the growth abated a bit, the overvalued stocks plummeted taking consumer confidence with it.  Companies couldn't afford to remain here so an accelerated wave of outsourcing screwed the job numbers.  Companies who could afford to stay had to give pay cuts and reduce their workforce.  A reduced workforce doing the samer activity translates into higher productivity.  Productivity = Profits.  However, with mandatory overhead at 3%-7% in Mexico and 22% in the US, corporations are performing their profit induced hiring in Mexico.  This translates into depressed job markets in the US.

Note that none of this has much of anything to do with profligate spending or iresponsible tax cuts; both parties are irrelevant in their claims.

The point is that the cycles of the economy, good and bad have nothing to do with governemtn programs.  If the government just leaves well enough alone things will work out.  The only thing is that until the mandatory overhead is tripled, or at least doubled in Mexico, the job market will be less attractive here; the US public would never stand for a reduction of more than 2% here.  In this suite, the Dems' cry for fair trade is not as far off as many would pose.  But, the overhead will naturally rise in 20 years to match the US; we don't need to renegotiate or cancel the treaties.  This is why we Reps are saying to continue to leave well enough alone; the unemployment is low enough as it is.  It's also a good way to break the vicious cycle of a consumer culture and credit card debt.  With a pay cut a family is likely to rethink their spending habits.
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Firefly
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« Reply #1254 on: March 07, 2004, 12:12:12 PM »

I would contend the National Debt is really meaningless. Everyone carries debt, debt isnt always a bad thing. Only one president in US History has ever payed off the National Debt and no president will ever do it again. Americans are overtaxed and thats a fact, overtaxed by a questionable tax system in the first place. Get rid of the IRS and put in a national sales tax. So its ok the Clinton lied to a grand jury? Ok, if you ever get called for a grand jury and lie what are they going to do to you? Let you go free and clear? Doubtful. Perjury is criminal whether its lying about a blowjob or lying about murder. I bet you'd be the first the crucify Nixon though. I remember Travelgate, Whitewater, Filegate, Vince Foster and on and on. Bush didnt lie about Iraq, he stated what he believed, Kerry agreed with Bush before the start of the war. Sadam did have WMD and they are probably still in Iraq or in Syria. Anyone that says their are no WMD are lying to themselves and to the Americans. Some of those weapons they had that killed thousands you can fit into a tube that you can put in your pocket. So whats not to say they weren't snuck out or buried? What about all the weapons the US Soldiers have found buried since the war? They wouldnt bury the WMD which would be the most damning evidence against them? Just for example. Have the Europeans ever found all the art work and gold the Nazis hid in the Second World War?

Re: National Debt:  National debt may or may not be meaningless; however, long-term budget deficits drag down the economy.

You say that it is a fact that Americans are overtaxed.  Do you have any evidence for this supposed fact?  Here's some that disputes your claim:

Total tax as percent of GDP:
United States- 28.9
Japan- 28.4
Germany- 37.0
United Kingdom- 37.2
Canada- 37.4
Italy- 42.7
France- 45.2
Sweden- 52.0

As you can see, among the top 8 industrialized countries in the world, only the citizens of Japan (barely) have a lower tax burden.  Replacing our progressive income tax system with a national sales tax would shift the tax burden to the lower, working, and middle classes.  If you want to destroy the middle class, then a national sales tax is a great idea.  Without the middle class, there would be noone to buy all the fancy products that corporations produce, so a national sales tax would eventually hurt business and the upper classes, too.

Taxes pay for social services on which many lower-income people depend.  Perhaps you make enough money that you don't need many of these services, but to rob these programs from those Americans who do need them so that you can pay lower taxes is just plain selfish.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1255 on: March 07, 2004, 12:19:59 PM »

Good points Firefly Smiley

Whenever the Right promise Tax Cuts they mean big tax cuts for the rich... and maybe a very small one for normal people.
This is morally wrong.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1256 on: March 07, 2004, 12:35:15 PM »

States have sales tax and it doesnt "kill" the middle class. If the national sales tax was say 6%, everyone would pay 6%. Not just poor or middle class. If their weren't any deductions for tax from your pay check you would have that extra money to spend and would more then make up for what the sales tax would take. You are right I dont depend on any government assistance but I am far from rich, I'm just barely middle class. Their is plenty of work in this nation for people to keep themselves off assistance, it's the motivation of people thats the problem.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1257 on: March 07, 2004, 12:38:36 PM »

Good points Firefly Smiley

Whenever the Right promise Tax Cuts they mean big tax cuts for the rich... and maybe a very small one for normal people.
This is morally wrong.

The following is the actual distribution of who pays what it terms of taxes:

Percentage of Total Federal & Estate Taxes paid by Income Quintile      
Congressional Budget Office - 2002 Taxation Year   
   
Top 10%       69%
9th Quintile      14%
8th Quintile      8%
7th Quintile      6%
6th Quintile      4%
5th Quintile      3%
4th Quintile      1%
3rd Quintile      -0.6%
2nd Quintile      -1.7%
Bottom 10%      -2.4%

Negative numbers indicate a net refund, where variouis credits refunded exceed that amount of tax actually paid.

You seem to feel the current distribution to be unfair.

Please provide the taxation distrubution that you believe would be fair.

For example, the top 10% currently pay 69% of the nations tax burden - what do you believe would be a "fair" number?

The bottom 50% of the population pays about 4% of the tax burden - what % would you feel would be appropriate?

This is a serious question - not rhetorical - I would honestly like your answer...




Cool Ayn Rand picture. I got a number of friends who are Rand-fanatics. Smiley Odd map also...
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1258 on: March 07, 2004, 12:41:43 PM »

Good points Firefly Smiley

Whenever the Right promise Tax Cuts they mean big tax cuts for the rich... and maybe a very small one for normal people.
This is morally wrong.

The following is the actual distribution of who pays what it terms of taxes:

Percentage of Total Federal & Estate Taxes paid by Income Quintile      
Congressional Budget Office - 2002 Taxation Year   
   
Top 10%       69%
9th Quintile      14%
8th Quintile      8%
7th Quintile      6%
6th Quintile      4%
5th Quintile      3%
4th Quintile      1%
3rd Quintile      -0.6%
2nd Quintile      -1.7%
Bottom 10%      -2.4%

Negative numbers indicate a net refund, where variouis credits refunded exceed that amount of tax actually paid.

You seem to feel the current distribution to be unfair.

Please provide the taxation distrubution that you believe would be fair.

For example, the top 10% currently pay 69% of the nations tax burden - what do you believe would be a "fair" number?

The bottom 50% of the population pays about 4% of the tax burden - what % would you feel would be appropriate?

This is a serious question - not rhetorical - I would honestly like your answer...

The rich should pay more (as should Big Business). Normal people should pays less.
The rich should NOT be given another tax cut.
Considering that the top 10% in America own most things, 69% seems far too low.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1259 on: March 07, 2004, 12:41:58 PM »

Gustaf I like your signature. The Oscar Wilde quote though sure doesnt hold up with Kerry. Being consistent isn't one of Kerrys strongpoints. Also, when is the last time a senator, one whos spent any time in the senate, has been elected President. J.F.K. was often out so skip him.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1260 on: March 07, 2004, 12:44:38 PM »

Al, how about scrapping the whole system and implementing a fairer tax system? One that doesn't have "Constitutional Questionability". The first thing that needs to go is the IRS.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1261 on: March 07, 2004, 12:48:14 PM »

Gustaf I like your signature. The Oscar Wilde quote though sure doesnt hold up with Kerry. Being consistent isn't one of Kerrys strongpoints. Also, when is the last time a senator, one whos spent any time in the senate, has been elected President. J.F.K. was often out so skip him.

Thanks. Are you saying that liking THAT quote is not consistent with supporting Kerry? I won't state the obvious answer to that... Wink
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classical liberal
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« Reply #1262 on: March 07, 2004, 01:18:34 PM »

States Rights-

You're sorely mistaken if you think that our Federal Deficit is good debt.  Good debt is debt incurred in the attainment of a positive cashflow statement.  Last time I checked our cash flow amounts to  -$527,000,000,000.00.  Negative cashflow ==> BAD debt.

The only way to responsibly reduce taxes is to cut services as well.  I think that we should, as Chairman Greenspan suggested, eliminate Social Security and Medicare and make the tax cuts permanent, eliminate the FICA while we're at it.  Then revenues are reduced to $1.3t and outlays are reduced to $1.4t plus the cost of war.  We could easily make up the other $100b in loophole closings and cross-purpose program elimination.
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opebo
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« Reply #1263 on: March 07, 2004, 01:57:43 PM »

Vorlon - your map interests me.  Cool to see a map that has a GOP win without FL or OH.  Why do you think the GOP will win Oregon and more particularly Washington, while losing Florida, Ohio, and WV?

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Gustaf
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« Reply #1264 on: March 07, 2004, 01:59:41 PM »

Vorlon - your map interests me.  Cool to see a map that has a GOP win without FL or OH.  Why do you think the GOP will win Oregon and more particularly Washington, while losing Florida, Ohio, and WV?



Not to mention losing New Hampshire...maybe he's doing a 'Miami'.. Wink
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1265 on: March 07, 2004, 02:11:08 PM »

States Rights-
The only way to responsibly reduce taxes is to cut services as well.  I think that we should, as Chairman Greenspan suggested, eliminate Social Security and Medicare and make the tax cuts permanent, eliminate the FICA while we're at it.  Then revenues are reduced to $1.3t and outlays are reduced to $1.4t plus the cost of war.  We could easily make up the other $100b in loophole closings and cross-purpose program elimination.

That would go over like a lead ballon? I think thats a little extreme. Although, I dont believe in this "Social Security Trustfund", aren't the social security checks that old folks receive now the Social Security Taxes that the younger working people are paying now? How would their be any Trustfund in that case?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1266 on: March 07, 2004, 02:15:10 PM »

States Rights-
The only way to responsibly reduce taxes is to cut services as well.  I think that we should, as Chairman Greenspan suggested, eliminate Social Security and Medicare and make the tax cuts permanent, eliminate the FICA while we're at it.  Then revenues are reduced to $1.3t and outlays are reduced to $1.4t plus the cost of war.  We could easily make up the other $100b in loophole closings and cross-purpose program elimination.

That would go over like a lead ballon? I think thats a little extreme. Although, I dont believe in this "Social Security Trustfund", aren't the social security checks that old folks receive now the Social Security Taxes that the younger working people are paying now? How would their be any Trustfund in that case?

If they didn't save money for retirement, too bad, let them starve. They would probably be needy-greedy Democrats anyway... Tongue
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1267 on: March 07, 2004, 02:22:57 PM »

Nowadays if you end up with no money in your old age it's your own fault. Many, many companies offer excellent retirement packages and 401(K). I do not expect social security to be there by the time I'm able to retire. I'm almost 25 now, I'll probably have to be 80 to get benefits, I know right now its 75 for me.
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afleitch
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« Reply #1268 on: March 07, 2004, 02:51:00 PM »

I find it disturbing to read Republicans on this board try to explain away the national debt of the USA, with phrases such as 'it's not a problem' and even more that the Clinton recovery was 'too much too fast.' Get realistic. The growth in jobs in February was so low it couldn't keep up with the growth in the working population, never mind alieviating the existing unemployed. Bush has lost more jobs than Herbert Hoover, and as one economist put it quite simply; 'Yuck' The stockmarket is lumbering along and the value of the Dollar has fallen so much that in the long trend, soon the Euro will be worth more than the Dollar! Yes the economy is better than it was a year ago, but it is far far worse than it was on the day Clinton left office. And all the Republicans can shout about is Clinton's morality! It would almost be excusable if this was part of a worldwide economic downturn, but no. The economy of Japan is gathering speed, as is that of China. The UK's economy is now into its 11th year of sustained growth, it's unemployment rate is the lowest for almost 30 years and we can still afford to pump billions into education and healthcare. Ross Perot where are you now!
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opebo
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« Reply #1269 on: March 07, 2004, 02:53:13 PM »

I think Ross Perot is in some sort of asylum.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1270 on: March 07, 2004, 02:57:26 PM »

Yes the economy, the jobs everything being bad is because of the President. I forgot Companies that are laying people off are run by Individual CEOs and that individuals buy into the stock market. I'm sorry but everything cant be blamed on the President. What about Alan Greenspan, doesnt he have more power over the economy then Bush?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1271 on: March 07, 2004, 03:01:14 PM »

Yes the economy, the jobs everything being bad is because of the President. I forgot Companies that are laying people off are run by Individual CEOs and that individuals buy into the stock market. I'm sorry but everything cant be blamed on the President. What about Alan Greenspan, doesnt he have more power over the economy then Bush?

Not really, he rules the interest rate, but that's not the only thing affecting the economy.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1272 on: March 07, 2004, 03:04:35 PM »

So many things affect the economy I find it hard to believe it can be blamed on one man and one man alone. Companies dont follow lockstep with the president. Companies are going to layoff or hire whether or not the President says jobs need to be increased. Just like where I work our boss tries to tell us "We havent got a cost of living raise because Republicans are in office." What a bunch of horse mess. Our companys profits have increased 5% every quarter since Bush took office. And they continue growing. Too many people try to blame the President for all the woes of our country.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #1273 on: March 07, 2004, 03:07:29 PM »

So many things affect the economy I find it hard to believe it can be blamed on one man and one man alone. Companies dont follow lockstep with the president. Companies are going to layoff or hire whether or not the President says jobs need to be increased. Just like where I work our boss tries to tell us "We havent got a cost of living raise because Republicans are in office." What a bunch of horse mess. Our companys profits have increased 5% every quarter since Bush took office. And they continue growing. Too many people try to blame the President for all the woes of our country.

Well, that's politics for you. Politicians, luckily, have much less effect on things than people think, especially when it comes to the economy.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #1274 on: March 07, 2004, 03:09:54 PM »

And if you want to take it another step, the congress actually has more authority and influence then the President does. Gustaf have you ever traveled to the US?
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