Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Logical]

I wonder how he died. The Russian Navy has mostly been uninvolved. Its primary role in the war was going to be the amphibious landing at Odessa. But, that's been indefinitely shelved due to the Army's lack of progress westward in the South.

Edit: there are twitter rumors that he was at Kherson Air Base when the 8th Army's commander was killed during Ukrainian shelling.

https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/status/1505333532876488705?s=20&t=m2d-r0S-ZsdZ0E3_Fse08g

Important note though, he is NOT the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet! I'm not 100% sure what his role is (some sources say he is in charge of training) but the deputy commander of the Fleet is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Pinchuk

[Middle-aged Europe]

Interesting thread. Whenever this ends, unless Russia repents in the same way that Germany eventually did after the Second World War, the Ukrainian hate towards Russia will last generations.
https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1505265888563453959?s=20&t=u_0KwyStN12...

As for the Russia/Germany comparisons people maybe need to understand that (West) German society had for a long time been in denial over the Nazi era and largely wanted to sweep it under the rug until the student protests of 1968 began. This was the point when a younger generation started to question why their parents were such ignorant sh**theads about it. And that was merely the beginning, since the airing of the American miniseries Holocaust on German television in early 1979 and the impact on the public debate it had is nowadays still considered a major cultural watershed moment for Germany's post-war society.

There exist some parallels to present-day Russia, namely that the 18-29 age bracket in that country is reportedly the least supportive of the Ukraine invasion, while older Russians tend to be very supportive of Putin policies. So far this polarization hasn't yet led to Russia's own version of 1968. Recent peace protests in the country could be seen as an early equivalent to it. Whether it so far failed to unfold a similar impact because of Russian government oppression or because Russian society just isnt't "there" yet, remains to be seen.

East Germany is also an example for a society where "1968" simply didn't happen due it being surpressed under an authoritarian system, leading to a post-communist society in the 1990s and onwards where nationalism was and is far more socially accepted than in former West Germany with its deeper democratic tradition. Then again, young East Germans didn't have the Internet back in 1968, a factor that could change things in Russia now...

[Storr]

I wonder how he died. The Russian Navy has mostly been uninvolved. Its primary role in the war was going to be the amphibious landing at Odessa. But, that's been indefinitely shelved due to the Army's lack of progress westward in the South.

Edit: there are twitter rumors that he was at Kherson Air Base when the 8th Army's commander was killed during Ukrainian shelling.

https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/status/1505333532876488705?s=20&t=m2d-r0S-ZsdZ0E3_Fse08g

Important note though, he is NOT the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet! I'm not 100% sure what his role is (some sources say he is in charge of training) but the deputy commander of the Fleet is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Pinchuk

According to google translate his title is: "Deputy Commander of the Black Sea Fleet for military-political work", Captain 1st Rank Andrey Nikolayevich Paliy. So I can see where people assumed he was the Deputy Commander of the whole fleet.

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1505267350647586823?s=20&t=wJ3fKqdDXhc...

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

I wonder how he died. The Russian Navy has mostly been uninvolved. Its primary role in the war was going to be the amphibious landing at Odessa. But, that's been indefinitely shelved due to the Army's lack of progress westward in the South.

Edit: there are twitter rumors that he was at Kherson Air Base when the 8th Army's commander was killed during Ukrainian shelling.

https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/status/1505333532876488705?s=20&t=m2d-r0S-ZsdZ0E3_Fse08g

Important note though, he is NOT the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet! I'm not 100% sure what his role is (some sources say he is in charge of training) but the deputy commander of the Fleet is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Pinchuk

According to google translate his title is: "Deputy Commander of the Black Sea Fleet for military-political work", Captain 1st Rank Andrey Nikolayevich Paliy. So I can see where people assumed he was the Deputy Commander of the whole fleet.

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1505267350647586823?s=20&t=wJ3fKqdDXhc...

That sounds like the Russian navy equivalent of G9 (civilian-military cooperation), which is still a high level staff officer.

[Logical]

I wonder how he died. The Russian Navy has mostly been uninvolved. Its primary role in the war was going to be the amphibious landing at Odessa. But, that's been indefinitely shelved due to the Army's lack of progress westward in the South.

Edit: there are twitter rumors that he was at Kherson Air Base when the 8th Army's commander was killed during Ukrainian shelling.

https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/status/1505333532876488705?s=20&t=m2d-r0S-ZsdZ0E3_Fse08g

Important note though, he is NOT the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet! I'm not 100% sure what his role is (some sources say he is in charge of training) but the deputy commander of the Fleet is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Pinchuk

According to google translate his title is: "Deputy Commander of the Black Sea Fleet for military-political work", Captain 1st Rank Andrey Nikolayevich Paliy. So I can see where people assumed he was the Deputy Commander of the whole fleet.

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1505267350647586823?s=20&t=wJ3fKqdDXhcPgfjMKonfgg

I don't blame anyone for the misunderstanding. The Russian command structure is exceedingly opaque and byzantine. For example, there are 8 deputy directors of the Rosgvardiya each in charge of different but overlapping portfolios, a classic signature of authoritarian regimes.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

I wonder how he died. The Russian Navy has mostly been uninvolved. Its primary role in the war was going to be the amphibious landing at Odessa. But, that's been indefinitely shelved due to the Army's lack of progress westward in the South.

Edit: there are twitter rumors that he was at Kherson Air Base when the 8th Army's commander was killed during Ukrainian shelling.

https://twitter.com/NotWoofers/status/1505333532876488705?s=20&t=m2d-r0S-ZsdZ0E3_Fse08g

Important note though, he is NOT the deputy commander of the Black Sea Fleet! I'm not 100% sure what his role is (some sources say he is in charge of training) but the deputy commander of the Fleet is this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Pinchuk

According to google translate his title is: "Deputy Commander of the Black Sea Fleet for military-political work", Captain 1st Rank Andrey Nikolayevich Paliy. So I can see where people assumed he was the Deputy Commander of the whole fleet.

https://twitter.com/666_mancer/status/1505267350647586823?s=20&t=wJ3fKqdDXhcPgfjMKonfgg

I don't blame anyone for the misunderstanding. The Russian command structure is exceedingly opaque and byzantine. For example, there are 8 deputy directors of the Rosgvardiya each in charge of different but overlapping portfolios, a classic signature of authoritian regimes.

I don’t know what the Russian staff structure looks like, but modern continental systems (like NATO countries use) have seven to nine staff departments. So having eight deputy commanders would be relatively normal for a large army using a similar system.

[Red Velvet]

Interesting thread. Whenever this ends, unless Russia repents in the same way that Germany eventually did after the Second World War, the Ukrainian hate towards Russia will last generations.
https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1505265888563453959?s=20&t=u_0KwyStN12...

As for the Russia/Germany comparisons people maybe need to understand that (West) German society had for a long time been in denial over the Nazi era and largely wanted to sweep it under the rug until the student protests of 1968 began. This was the point when a younger generation started to question why their parents were such ignorant sh**theads about it. And that was merely the beginning, since the airing of the American miniseries Holocaust on German television in early 1979 and the impact on the public debate it had is nowadays still considered a major cultural watershed moment for Germany's post-war society.

There exist some parallels to present-day Russia, namely that the 18-29 age bracket in that country is reportedly the least supportive of the Ukraine invasion, while older Russians tend to be very supportive of Putin policies. So far this polarization hasn't yet led to Russia's own version of 1968. Recent peace protests in the country could be seen as an early equivalent to it. Whether it so far failed to unfold a similar impact because of Russian government oppression or because Russian society just isnt't "there" yet, remains to be seen.

East Germany is also an example for a society where "1968" simply didn't happen due it being surpressed under an authoritarian system, leading to a post-communist society in the 1990s and onwards where nationalism was and is far more socially accepted than in former West Germany with its deeper democratic tradition. Then again, young East Germans didn't have the Internet back in 1968, a factor that could change things in Russia now...

There’s also how what you’re describing happened more than 20 years after the fact in an already well-established democratic society.

Meanwhile Putin is a strongman in power who still has decent approval because of Russians perception that he “put the country in its feet again”. I don’t think it’s something that will shift now or in the next 20 years, unless Putin is ousted soon and there’s a (successful) adaptation to liberal democracy model. Which sounds very unlikely imo.

Most Russians I heard think of the 90s as a terrible era for the country in the economic sense, the way they talk make it sound like they lived in misery. And that’s exactly the decade international community holds as the best decade for Russia that they should go back to, as they were more liberal and open times.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a fear from some people of more liberalization, correlating that to their experience from the 90s, while Putin is perceived as a “safe place” for stability. Especially for people who lived through it.

There’s always a difference between what locals and the world take into consideration as priorities. Average people only care to afford their domestic necessities and have a decent quality of life. If they think other matters will get in the way of that, they are open to rationalize everything.

Don’t know exactly how it’s in Russia but that’s a behavior I think is universal.

[Storr]

Yeah...there are a few not very subtle hints that it was Germany:

"On the first day of the war, Feb. 24, Ukraine's ambassador to a very influential European country attended the office of the secretary of state of some ministry and said: "Help us, the war has begun. Help us with this and that." That person smiled sympathetically and answered: "My dear, let's be honest, why we should help you if everything ends in a maximum of 48 hours and a new reality comes." This is a specific episode that took place in an extremely influential EU country."

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1505352215782989826?s=20&t=oth05F...

[Storr]

What I've been reading is a 1968 PhD thesis analyzing Soviet Records (newspapers, official histories, etc.) of the Winter War.

https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/19633

Edit. I'm pretty sure I've seen Russian media (definitely from pro-Russian twitter accounts) use an excuse along the lines of "only the corrupt corporate western media hyped up the idea of a quick victory in order to embarrass Russia!" similar to the excerpt below.

"For instance, by 23 December Russian press bosses came to the interesting conclusion that anyone who had expected a "Blitzkrieg" by the Red Army in Finland must have acted from desire to discredit the Soviet Union and her fighting forces."

Never change, Russia. Never change...

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1505356918419828743?s=20&t=I8JM5Jj...

[Meclazine for Israel]

Again what exactly does sending aid to Russia give you? If you truly do want better US China relations but are also willing to balance other factors how will China sending aid to Russia benefit either America or China or their relations ?

Your position is merely one of wanting to own the libs.

I don't disagree with your approach or questions.

Keep in mind China can just lie and say they are not sending aid to Russia.

Then they just send aid to Russia.

That appears almost obvious to the point it is most likely already happening.

[compucomp]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

Not everyone who disagrees with you in automatically a troll.

But compucomp is

You can call me what you want. But the fact is, I am expressing the views broadly held by 1.4 billion people, 1.3 billion or so have a government whose actions up to now are indistinguishable from China's, and as described by Red Velvet earlier in this thread, hundreds of millions live in countries that either sympathize with the alternate viewpoint or refuse to go along with Western sanctions, including American allies Saudi Arabia and Israel. I thought this was a political forum to discuss all viewpoints, and normally it is, but for some reason on this issue it is a complete echo chamber.

Again what exactly does sending aid to Russia give you? If you truly do want better US China relations but are also willing to balance other factors how will China sending aid to Russia benefit either America or China or their relations ?

Your position is merely one of wanting to own the libs.

It's quite embarrassing for Russia but they might need our support to keep the war going to a conclusion they can claim is a "win". If I really want to "take off the mask" and go full realpolitik, then I would say that having Russia as the West's chief antagonist is very good for China as then it means China is not, and Russia can be a huge supplier of energy and food for China to compensate for us possibly having our sea lanes cut off by the Americans. But Putin being removed and Russia in ruins or as a pro-Western client state would be a huge loss for China; we lose our ally, we become public enemy #1 to the West again, and Western relations with China will only get worse from that point; in short if Russia falls we're next.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

Not everyone who disagrees with you in automatically a troll.

But compucomp is

He's not. I've met people similar to but less extreme than him in real life. This is your brain on authoritarianism plus affluence.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

Not everyone who disagrees with you in automatically a troll.

But compucomp is

You can call me what you want. But the fact is, I am expressing the views broadly held by 1.4 billion people, 1.3 billion or so have a government whose actions up to now are indistinguishable from China's, and as described by Red Velvet earlier in this thread, hundreds of millions live in countries that either sympathize with the alternate viewpoint or refuse to go along with Western sanctions, including American allies Saudi Arabia and Israel. I thought this was a political forum to discuss all viewpoints, and normally it is, but for some reason on this issue it is a complete echo chamber.

Rest assured, I don't think it's right or fair for you to feel obliged to shut up, and really, the fact that some people aren't even willing to tolerate opinions contrary to their own is a sign to how intolerance of many kinds runs rampant in both broader society and, to a thankfully lesser extent, this very forum.
If your types were 80% of the forum and wanted to do the same, I'd also be opposed. This is about standing up for a free and open society.

[WMS]

It’s not geographic, it’s based mostly on power tier levels in the world mixed with the autocratic-democratic ideological divide. Second-tier powers want to weaken the first-tier power so they can do whatever they want to their neighbors. This appears to override considerations of democracy and autocracy because power corrupts and all that.*

Lol that’s the typical “bringing freedom and democracy to the savages” world police exceptionalism that it’s pointless to argue with. Not that different from Putin fabricating moral argument bs that validates HIS interventions with the “denazification” thing.

Oh bulls#!t. If you cannot see the mix of power politics and affinity to autocracy behind not supporting Ukraine then you’re being deliberately obtuse. Or if you cannot see the difference between Ukraine’s government and Russia’s government. Or if you cannot see the differences between most governments supporting Ukraine and most governments supporting Russia. Unless you’re not speaking in good faith, of course.

As if the West was democratic pinnacle to act like that, the main difference there is that corruption is sold as “entrepreneurship” and elections with two parties only are treated as example to others to follow. You’re not changing your mind and neither am I on this.

As opposed to what? The West is definitely better than those opposing it over Ukraine on human rights, political rights, civil liberties, corruption, human development, and other such grounds.

Regarding the Brazilian poll, that’s not the “Bolsonaro” or “Lula” view. Neutrality is a consensus. The “Nem-Nem” voters are people who will vote for other options and they’re 73% so… not an ideological thing at all. You can bet the Lula voter would be even higher than 70% if it wasn’t Bolsonaro pushing for neutrality.

Most Brazilians don’t want to get involved. Although that is different from supporting Russian fake claims on bio labs or inviting Russia to develop subs. Do most Brazilians support those? Wait, I read the entire poll since my last reply and:

Quaest March 2022, questions related to Russia vs Ukraine war

View on Russia
All: unfavorable 68%, none 26%, favorable 7%
Bolsonaro voters: unfavorable 69%, none 24%, favorable 7%
Lula voters: unfavorable 65%, none 27%, favorable 8%
other voters: unfavorable 46%, none 51%, favorable 4%

Which side should Brazil support?
All: neutral 71%, Ukraine 20%, Russia 1%
Bolsonaro voters: neutral 78%, Ukraine 16%, Russia 1%
Lula voters: neutral 68%, Ukraine 21%, Russia 1%
other voters: neutral 70%, Ukraine 25%, Russia 1%

Hmm, only 7% favorable towards Russia, and 68% unfavorable. That rather indicates that while Brazilians don’t want to get involved, they’ve made it clear who they think is in the wrong. That is not consistent with supporting Russia on bio labs claims in Ukraine or with nuclear submarine development with Russia. As for the bit about the Lula voters, there are people who blindly follow what their leaders tell them to everywhere.

Again, that doesn’t mean support for Russia at all (I think people sympathize with Ukraine), but show that people disagree with taking a position and not just buying the simplistic good vs evil narrative. NYT already reported on this geographic divide:

In some parts of the world, the war in Ukraine seems justified

Yeah, very much sympathetic to Ukraine. Even Lula voters only have Russia at 8% support.

Oh my. I don’t think that article supports what you think it does.

Most of the world has loudly and unequivocally condemned Mr. Putin for sparking a war with Ukraine. But in countries where governments have remained neutral, tacitly supported Russia or encouraged the dissemination of false or sanitized accounts of the war, citizens are voicing a much more complicated and forgiving narrative of Mr. Putin’s invasion.

Most definition.

Note that two out of the three categories of countries not part of “most of the world” are negative: either “tacitly supported Russia” or “encouraged the dissemination of false or sanitized accounts of the war”. Not exactly disagreeing with taking a position or rejecting good and evil sides; quite the opposite.

I can’t quote too much of the article but these bits are telling:

Arthur Maia Caetano {from} Rio de Janeiro…has been using his time to read Russian news websites and bulletins from…Telegram…Mr. Caetano {cited} unfounded claims circulating online…

In China, state media has done much to bolster false stories about what is unfolding in Ukraine. Outlets have republished official Russian propaganda without verification, including false reports…

In Vietnam, state authorities have also attempted to control the narrative about the war…issued directives on reporting on the war that included reducing the extent and frequency of coverage, and banning the word “invasion.”

The African National Congress…is South Africa’s governing party. The latest edition of its weekly newsletter includes an article with the headline, “Situation in Ukraine is about denazification of the country by Russia.” The article perpetuates the false claim, promoted by the Russian government, that in 2014 Ukraine’s government “was replaced by ultra-nationals and neo Nazis who were backed by the U.S. and the E.U.”

Fine company, this.

And yes, your bubble, everyone should always realize they’re in one and their views are related to many different backgrounds and experiences.

Not how you used the term but ooooookay then. I think it’s fair to say I’m in a bigger bubble than you. I at least rely on a free and fair exchange of information when making my points and do my best to cite a variety of sources that aren’t spouting the rhetoric of autocratic regimes.

But cool that you mention that attempts to isolate US for Iraq war failed while this one went unquestioned for a reason. Thanks for backing my point?

You missed the point. Your failure to differentiate between the two cases means you also fail to see why the outcomes of isolation attempts were different.

[NOVA Green]

Interesting thread. Whenever this ends, unless Russia repents in the same way that Germany eventually did after the Second World War, the Ukrainian hate towards Russia will last generations.
https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1505265888563453959?s=20&t=u_0KwyStN12...

As for the Russia/Germany comparisons people maybe need to understand that (West) German society had for a long time been in denial over the Nazi era and largely wanted to sweep it under the rug until the student protests of 1968 began. This was the point when a younger generation started to question why their parents were such ignorant sh**theads about it. And that was merely the beginning, since the airing of the American miniseries Holocaust on German television in early 1979 and the impact on the public debate it had is nowadays still considered a major cultural watershed moment for Germany's post-war society.

There exist some parallels to present-day Russia, namely that the 18-29 age bracket in that country is reportedly the least supportive of the Ukraine invasion, while older Russians tend to be very supportive of Putin policies. So far this polarization hasn't yet led to Russia's own version of 1968. Recent peace protests in the country could be seen as an early equivalent to it. Whether it so far failed to unfold a similar impact because of Russian government oppression or because Russian society just isnt't "there" yet, remains to be seen.

East Germany is also an example for a society where "1968" simply didn't happen due it being surpressed under an authoritarian system, leading to a post-communist society in the 1990s and onwards where nationalism was and is far more socially accepted than in former West Germany with its deeper democratic tradition. Then again, young East Germans didn't have the Internet back in 1968, a factor that could change things in Russia now...

Stopped posting for the most part on this thread ever since having been "Banned From the Roxy"...

Still having lived in Germany in the early-mid '90s, not to mention time spent in Poland and Hungary, def have a few opinions on the topic.

At this point, very little interest posting on this thread, after having been "Moded" for a post which I believe had already been deleted, which caused me to delete 25+ posts... so "Banned from the Roxy"

Have plenty of stories to tell about having lived and visited Central Europe as a young man, and quite frankly referenced items such as a film director in an Infoladen in Wedding Berlin, way back when I lived in Prenzlauer Berg in the '94 era shortly "Nach Dem Wende".

Pls PM me if interested, since this isn't necessarily the correct thread to discuss such items, but having lived there for a time, perspectives are naturally very different than many young Atlas Millennials from the USA and the UK.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Again what exactly does sending aid to Russia give you? If you truly do want better US China relations but are also willing to balance other factors how will China sending aid to Russia benefit either America or China or their relations ?

Your position is merely one of wanting to own the libs.

I don't disagree with your approach or questions.

Keep in mind China can just lie and say they are not sending aid to Russia.

Then they just send aid to Russia.

That appears almost obvious to the point it is most likely already happening.

True, I think China wouldn't mind helping Russia as long as they don't have negative consequences. There will probably be a lot of "independent" Chinese businessmen importing things and then exporting them to Russia to circumvent the sanctions. China said they are still mad at NATO for the bombing of their Belgrade embassy.

[WMS]

And the correlation of “bringing freedom” wasn’t about this Ukraine situation at all, but how your part of the world talks about third world as undemocratic savages to justify wars, which is what WMS used to differentiate wars in Iraq as more justifiable than this one.

That is not my position you lying sack of crap. I neither said nor implied that the “third world” (I thought we were using Developing World?) is a bunch of ‘undemocratic savages.’ Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi government certainly did fit that bill, something you would realize if you ever cracked open some human rights reports. The difference between that government and the U.S. one does in part explain the differing reactions and actions to Iraq as opposed to Ukraine. Or are you going to argue that Saddam’s Iraqi government is morally equivalent to Zelenesky’s Ukrainian one? Because that is what you are implying.

“Oh but you say that, you are validating other places interventions”. No, because 1) I am personally against what Russia is doing in Ukraine, although I defend neutrality. 2) These places already feel entitled to war and interventions regardless of whatever I think lol. Look at WMS post and you get the idea war is more justifiable when done against undemocratic savages. And who gets to decide that? Because I don’t believe most of the West is example of democracy or anticorruption.

Yet fucking again you lie about my position. There is nothing about “undemocratic savages”. The difference between the government of Saddam’s Iraq and the government of the U.S. did in part shape the international reaction to the Iraq War. I don’t call it Bush’s Iraq because as a democracy the government was not at the whim of an autocrat like Saddam.* Just as the difference between the government of Ukraine and the government of Putin’s Russia are in part shaping the international reaction to the Ukraine War.** Plenty of governments opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq, but they*** weren’t about to sanction the U.S. to destroy its economy or the like for the sake of multi-genocidaire Saddam Hussein.

I find the prevalence of whataboutism and “both sides” claims among some parts of the Developing World over the Ukraine War to be a mark against them, not a point in their favor. However it seems to mostly be an elite- and government-led effort designed to convince their populations a la the Russian effort on the far left and far right in the U.S. Surely they are simply misled by their own government’s propaganda because cheering for the death and suffering of others is something actual “undemocratic savages” of all countries would partake in.

*Yes, the Bush Administration had problems both internal and external. No, it is in no way the moral equivalent of Saddam’s regime. Grow up.
**Putin is an autocrat, Zelenesky is a democrat. Notice the trend?
***Excepting Iran (officially, anyway) who gasp is on the side supporting Russia today! And even they didn’t do it for Saddam’s sake.

[Adam Griffin]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

You'll never see them again:

[It’s so Joever]

Looks like Snihurivka may have been recaptured by the Russians.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1504832865300889603?s=20&t=5QMRXF9XwHnu...

Absolutely heart-breaking. Not really an update or anything, but I don't think it can be understated how much animosity Putin is fueling among average Ukrainians against Russia. I can't see Ukraine ever having a significant Pro-Russian or even Russia friendly government or political party again after all this is said and done, barring Putin attempting to force one on them via the barrel of a gun.

[Old Man Willow]

https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1504832865300889603?s=20&t=5QMRXF9XwHnu...

Absolutely heart-breaking. Not really an update or anything, but I don't think it can be understated how much animosity Putin is fueling among average Ukrainians against Russia. I can't see Ukraine ever having a significant Pro-Russian or even Russia friendly government or political party again after all this is said and done, barring Putin attempting to force one on them via the barrel of a gun.

I assume any pro-Russian government officials will be in constant danger of assassination.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1504832865300889603?s=20&t=5QMRXF9XwHnu...
Absolutely heart-breaking. Not really an update or anything, but I don't think it can be understated how much animosity Putin is fueling among average Ukrainians against Russia. I can't see Ukraine ever having a significant Pro-Russian or even Russia friendly government or political party again after all this is said and done, barring Putin attempting to force one on them via the barrel of a gun.

I assume any pro-Russian government officials will be in constant danger of assassination.

Oh, without a doubt. You have to wonder who they could even get to lead such a collaborationist government? There was a supposed FSB analyst a few weeks ago who essentially said that even Opposition Platform (Pro-Russia party) and other Ukrainian oligarchs are all refusing to cooperate. They’d have to either bring in administrators straight from the motherland or elevate some real nobodies to the helm… and I can’t imagine either of those options going well.

[emailking]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

You'll never see them again:

What does "Make profile visible to registered forum members only" do? I can't seem to view anybody's profile logged out. It forces you to login.

[Interlocutor is just not there yet]

Can ya'll seriously stop feeding the troll? Most of the last 3 pages have been taken up by a inane debate caused by one or two bootlickers

You'll never see them again:

/snip

Thanks for that! I didn't know you could ignore people on here

[emailking]

They bombed an art school.

https://twitter.com/PaulaChertok/status/1505438546974322691

Russia bombs art school in Mariupol with residents inside - city council

City council in Ukraine's Mariupol city said on Sunday that Russian forces bombed an art school where 400 residents had taken refuge.

Council added that there were yet no reports regarding the casualties from the bombing.

https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2022/03/20/russia-bombs-art-school-in-mariupol-with-residents-inside-city-council