Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[MaxQue]

To the people saying it's a lot to ask of civilians – no duh. They're not being compelled to fight afaik, and I certainly wouldn't blame any who chose to flee or submit. But I certainly think it's incredibly admirable for those who can fight to do so.

That, but with a caveat. I would heavily blame anybody who hapilly and willfully collaborate or abet the Russian enemy. Hopefully, collaborator scum will be dealt with harshly once Ukraine is free again.

[afleitch]

Old Eastern Bloc nations wouldn't have joined our be lining up to join NATO if they felt safe from the country that defacto subjugated them for fifty years. It's really a simply tenet.

[Splash]

https://twitter.com/ichbinilya/status/1496894500253278217

[It’s so Joever]

Sanctions won’t do anything, a rocket will be more of a deterrent than a sanction ever would!

[Torrain]

I know this is small potatoes in the scale of the conflict, and that all Russia’s justifications for war are fabricated.

But Putin’s claim that he plans to ‘denazify’ Ukraine are particularly galling when you acknowledge that Zelensky is the one of only two Jewish heads of state in Europe*, and lost family in the Holocaust no less.

*(Latvia being the other).

[John Dule]

To the people saying it's a lot to ask of civilians – no duh. They're not being compelled to fight afaik, and I certainly wouldn't blame any who chose to flee or submit. But I certainly think it's incredibly admirable for those who can fight to do so.

I agree with this.

[Damocles]

Some users on this forum defending Russia could go to the Olympics for mental gymnastics.

[The Free North]

https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1496893286522437635


Invading a fallout zone doesnt seem to be the brightest idea.

[Sir Mohamed]

Old Eastern Bloc nations wouldn't have joined our be lining up to join NATO if they felt safe from the country that defacto subjugated them for fifty years. It's really a simply tenet.

Yup, and Putler is working overtime to get others like Finland into NATO. In the long run, this move could for sure backfire massively.

[Damocles]

I know this is small potatoes in the scale of the conflict, and that all Russia’s justifications for war are fabricated.

But Putin’s claim that he plans to ‘denazify’ Ukraine are particularly galling when you acknowledge that Zelensky is the one of only two Jewish heads of state in Europe*, and lost family in the Holocaust no less.

*(Latvia being the other).

F#%k, what a gut-punch. Imagine losing family members to an apocalyptic genocide, then being called a Nazi, and baselessly accused of committing a genocide yourself.

[Omega21]

Sanctions won’t do anything, a rocket will be more of a deterrent than a sanction ever would!

According to you, seems our seasons should be

Winter
Nuclear Winter
Spring
Summer
Autumn

[GeneralMacArthur]

To the people saying it's a lot to ask of civilians – no duh. They're not being compelled to fight afaik, and I certainly wouldn't blame any who chose to flee or submit. But I certainly think it's incredibly admirable for those who can fight to do so.

I agree with this.

We saw during Euromaidan that there are plenty of Ukrainians more than willing to lay down their lives opposing Russia, and that was with a lot less at stake than the current situation.

[StateBoiler]

Below is a battle map that's designed to be conservative. Appears the Ukrainian defenses north of Crimea have fallen.



https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1496854817767145478

Here is my first #UkraineUnderAttack map, based on - very conservative - fighting and troop movement geolocations as well as Ukrainian army reports. It looks grim.

A Julian Ropcke on Twitter with a Ukrainian flag next to his user name.

This guy is a German journalist with Bild.

Posted an hour ago:

Russian troops have captured Sumy in northeast Ukraine. No fighting and Russian tanks control city center.
Also Ochtyrka fell. Possible there is only one Russian front between Kharkiv and Sumy.

Pictures at the link above and a video of some burning military trucks in the street.

[KaiserDave]

There will be more than enough Ukrainian insurgents.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I know this is small potatoes in the scale of the conflict, and that all Russia’s justifications for war are fabricated.

But Putin’s claim that he plans to ‘denazify’ Ukraine are particularly galling when you acknowledge that Zelensky is the one of only two Jewish heads of state in Europe*, and lost family in the Holocaust no less.

*(Latvia being the other).

F#%k, what a gut-punch. Imagine losing family members to an apocalyptic genocide, then being called a Nazi, and baselessly accused of committing a genocide yourself.

It would just be the loony ravings of a far-right dictator to us if not for the fact that 30% of zoomers derive their political views from Hasan's twitch streams.

During the Iraq War, there weren't any influential talking heads going around repeating Baghdad Bob's talking points.  Now we have Fox News on the right and the Berniesphere on the left, both highly influential among the party bases, and both basically doing that with Putin's propaganda.  It's sickening.  And I've been warning about it for years.

[pppolitics]

There will be more than enough Ukrainian insurgents.

Ukraine has been training civilians for this

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/26/world/europe/ukraine-russia-civilian-training.html

[LabourJersey]

Sanctions won’t do anything, a rocket will be more of a deterrent than a sanction ever would!

How can you say that? Sanctions are economic warfare--they may not have the immediate effect that you'd prefer, but they absolutely do something.

[jaichind]

UBS cuts the value of Russian bonds to zero and triggering margin calls on counterparties/customers that hold them.

[StateBoiler]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

If my homeland were being destroyed by an invader I'd fight to the death to defend it. Freedom over capitulation.

A lot of posters on Atlas are Anywheres rather than Somewheres and have a different mindset on this.

Very easy for you to say given that your home isn't the one under threat. I certainly hope I'd do the same, but it's impossible to say for sure until one is put in such a situation. All I'm saying is that I don't blame the Ukrainian people if an insurgency doesn't materialize-- and anyone who does blame them is profoundly ignorant.

Ukraninan has been training a private (civilians) paramilitary force just for this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/26/world/europe/ukraine-russia-civilian-training.html

People have this grandiose idea of what a militia can accomplish and I part blame Hollywood and Mel Gibson movies for planting fantasies in people's heads. Imagine I took you from your day job that you know how to do everything and put you on a soccer field which you have an idea how to play but don't understand strategy at all. I trained you how to play soccer and come a month later, you get pretty decent at it, your team can play as a unit.

Then I put you on a field to play against the 2nd or 3rd-best team in the world.

It's even worse than that in this case because the opponent enjoys technological advantage and have trained for years how to use that.

[TheReckoning]

Sanctions won’t do anything, a rocket will be more of a deterrent than a sanction ever would!

Some of us don’t want to see Armageddon during our lifetime, you see.

Also, where are all the anti-Imperialist leftists in this thread?

[DaleCooper]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

Do you believe that Russian occupation is a better outcome for the Ukrainian people?

I believe that there's a legitimate debate to be had over whether it's preferable to be ruled by Putin or to see your country devolve into a European Syria, and the keyboard insurgents who want to see years of violent resistance have no right to judge the Ukrainian people for which option they choose.

I want to make very clear here, I am not judging any of the Ukrainian people aside from their leadership. When I say I support opposition to the Russians, it's because I want the Russians to suffer so that they will be less likely to pull this again in the future. Unfortunately we can't control the actions of sh-thole countries like Russia, and it's incredibly tragic that Putin decided to target Ukraine in his effort to spread his filth across the globe, but that's not something we can control anymore. All we can do is try and make Russia and its people hurt, and right now because of Russia's actions Ukraine is the avenue to do that through. I don't judge any Ukrainians for not resisting, but so long as there are people in Ukraine willing to kill Russian soldiers, they should have our support. As callous and sad as this is to say, we're not just talking about the quality of life in Ukraine (or even Ukraine's independence), we're talking about putting the cesspit that is Putin's Russia in its place.

[StateBoiler]

Sanctions won’t do anything, a rocket will be more of a deterrent than a sanction ever would!

How can you say that? Sanctions are economic warfare--they may not have the immediate effect that you'd prefer, but they absolutely do something.

If they did something, the ones on the Russians from Crimea 7 years ago would've...done something.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Also, where are all the anti-Imperialist leftists in this thread?

"Imperialism is when a country is EU-aligned. The more EU-aligned it is, the imperialister it is."

[jaichind]

Note that Eastern Ukraine is fairly flat and poorly suited for insurgency warfare.  In the 1941-1944 period most of the anti-German partisan were located in Belarus and Pinsk Marshes and were not present in Eastern Ukraine.

[StateBoiler]

To the people saying it's a lot to ask of civilians – no duh. They're not being compelled to fight afaik, and I certainly wouldn't blame any who chose to flee or submit. But I certainly think it's incredibly admirable for those who can fight to do so.

A Pole on another forum said the Ukrainians were allowing women and children to cross the border, not men.

I'm not judging. Hard times call for hard measures.