Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[Person Man]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

What if it was your town?

[John Dule]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

What if it was your town?

Then it would be up for me to decide what to do, just as it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide. No one is under the obligation, however, to engage in all-out urban warfare for which they are untrained because their government failed to uphold its obligation to protect them.

[It’s so Joever]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

[Aurelius]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

If my homeland were being destroyed by an invader I'd fight to the death to defend it, or at least I'd like to hope so. Freedom over capitulation.

A lot of posters on Atlas are Anywheres rather than Somewheres and have a different mindset on this.

[YPestis25]

All I'll say is that it's terribly easy to post about how brave you'd be in a war from the comfort of your living room.

[John Dule]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

[DaleCooper]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

He wants to inflict so much pain on Russia that the Russians decide: Oh, never mind!  I don't really want Unraine that badly.

If that were true then he would've been better prepared militarily.

Again, whether or not this will be a failure for Russia depends on the amount of grieving families back home. Russia has a long history of being a sh-thole country as far as the economy is concerned, sanctions alone won't make the Russians realize the folly of supporting a dictator like Putin. But once their sons and husbands and fathers start dying or getting maimed? Then maybe they'll finally wake up.

[John Dule]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

If my homeland were being destroyed by an invader I'd fight to the death to defend it. Freedom over capitulation.

A lot of posters on Atlas are Anywheres rather than Somewheres and have a different mindset on this.

Very easy for you to say given that your home isn't the one under threat. I certainly hope I'd do the same, but it's impossible to say for sure until one is put in such a situation. All I'm saying is that I don't blame the Ukrainian people if an insurgency doesn't materialize-- and anyone who does blame them is profoundly ignorant.

[Ferguson97]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

Do you believe that Russian occupation is a better outcome for the Ukrainian people?

[jaichind]

It seems Olaf Scholz indicated he cannot support cutting Russia off from SWIFT.

[MaxQue]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

They are going to "enjoy" multiple decades if they do nothing. Ever heard of the Holomodor?

[Illiniwek]

https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1496884570716835840?s=20&t=OZ9sTi02ZF...

Surrendering to Ukraine is a bold move if Russia wins the war over the coming days. I can't imagine Putin will treat his soldiers well who laid down their arms because they didn't agree with the mission.

[Omega21]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

What if it was your town?

That's widely varied, even from the attacker's perspective, when dealing with a "foe" that belongs to a similar people.

A family member of mine was mobilized to the VRS to a defensive position, which wasn't that bad. A few months later, he received a letter of relocation to an Artillery unit that was engaging an urban area. At that point, he said he'd rather take a few years in jail over hearing on the radio that his barrage hit a school or something, and luckily with a few connections, got the relocation canceled.

I assume some of the Russians on the ground now are also facing similar moral challenges.
 

[The Free North]

https://twitter.com/IntelCrab/status/1496890176207044612

[Aurelius]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

If my homeland were being destroyed by an invader I'd fight to the death to defend it. Freedom over capitulation.

A lot of posters on Atlas are Anywheres rather than Somewheres and have a different mindset on this.

Very easy for you to say given that your home isn't the one under threat. I certainly hope I'd do the same, but it's impossible to say for sure until one is put in such a situation. All I'm saying is that I don't blame the Ukrainian people if an insurgency doesn't materialize-- and anyone who does blame them is profoundly ignorant.

Fair point.

[pppolitics]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

If my homeland were being destroyed by an invader I'd fight to the death to defend it. Freedom over capitulation.

A lot of posters on Atlas are Anywheres rather than Somewheres and have a different mindset on this.

Very easy for you to say given that your home isn't the one under threat. I certainly hope I'd do the same, but it's impossible to say for sure until one is put in such a situation. All I'm saying is that I don't blame the Ukrainian people if an insurgency doesn't materialize-- and anyone who does blame them is profoundly ignorant.

Ukraninan has been training a private (civilians) paramilitary force just for this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/26/world/europe/ukraine-russia-civilian-training.html

[John Dule]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

Do you believe that Russian occupation is a better outcome for the Ukrainian people?

I believe that there's a legitimate debate to be had over whether it's preferable to be ruled by Putin or to see your country devolve into a European Syria, and the keyboard insurgents who want to see years of violent resistance have no right to judge the Ukrainian people for which option they choose.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1496884570716835840?s=20&t=OZ9sTi02ZF...

It's like if your phyco dad sent you to kill your next door neighbor and you've never agree with the plan in the first place, you are probably not going to try very hard.

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Galaxy brain take you got there Putin

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1496890459377094663?s=20&t=o6I05vw2ICmLOXMjlB...

[jaichind]

Putin to Russian business leaders

"This is the main thing, for this to be clear: what is happening [in Ukraine] is a forced measure. We were simply left with no chance to act otherwise,"

"Of course, we all, and you too, understand the world we live in. And we were preparing one way or another for what is happening now in terms of restrictions and sanctions policy,"

"We are not going to inflict damage on the system of world economy that we ourselves are in. It seems to me, our partners should understand this and not set themselves the task of pushing us out of this system,"

[It’s so Joever]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

Do you believe that Russian occupation is a better outcome for the Ukrainian people?

I believe that there's a legitimate debate to be had over whether it's preferable to be ruled by Putin or to see your country devolve into a European Syria, and the keyboard insurgents who want to see years of violent resistance have no right to judge the Ukrainian people for which option they choose.

I wouldn’t be judging Ukrainians for surrendering, I get it and sympathize, I would support arming vigilantes however anyways. We also should consider placing troops in Western Ukraine. Let’s see if Russia keeps going.

[GALeftist]

To the people saying it's a lot to ask of civilians – no duh. They're not being compelled to fight afaik, and I certainly wouldn't blame any who chose to flee or submit. But I certainly think it's incredibly admirable for those who can fight to do so.

[WMS]

Whataboutism is not trying to explain Putin's nationalism in the context of recent history,  but rather trying to justify it arguing the other side is worse. Given that I'm not justifying Putin's aggression,  your claim is false.  I want to clarify Putin's regime is by no means comparable to Nazi Germany. I made an analogy to the Treaty of Versailles because that's a good example of bad approaches that had fatal consequences. Neither that treaty justifies the crimes of the Nazi regime nor Hitler was the only German nationalist. The rest of your post is simply too hysterical

Again dodging the point that you were repeating Russian claims about NATO expansion as fact and using the excuse of hysteria because you can’t defend your points.

Whatever, tankie. Go simp for Putin like a good little International Leftist.

edit:

Kander2020, BigSerg, compucomp and Vaccinated Russian Bear have been our pro-Putin contingent.

VRB seems like he may be having a bit of buyer's remorse as he's just been posting updates instead of crowing like you would expect.

Then we have a much larger coalition of "I'm not a Putin fan but..." folks.  Mostly the usual assortment of Chapo leftists and Tucker rightists.

[GeneralMacArthur]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

This is the pretty standard method of combatting an occupation by a more powerful nation.  Surely we as Americans have learned this over the last 30 years.  Zelensky wants a Black Hawk Down type situation in Kiev.  The damage that would do to Putin would be worth far more to Ukraine than the dozens/hundreds of lives lost.

[Omega21]

So is this Zelensky's master plan? Arming the citizenry and expecting people to turn their cities and towns into all-out war zones? Do the users in this thread promoting this idea understand the misery and destruction that insurgencies bring?

I'm not saying the people of Ukraine should give up without a fight, but there has to be a limit to what you expect of civilian populations.

Seems like a good plan. Arm as many vigilantes no matter who they are. Russia can enjoy the next decade of this.

The Ukrainian people will be the ones "enjoying" that decade.

Do you believe that Russian occupation is a better outcome for the Ukrainian people?

I believe that there's a legitimate debate to be had over whether it's preferable to be ruled by Putin or to see your country devolve into a European Syria, and the keyboard insurgents who want to see years of violent resistance have no right to judge the Ukrainian people for which option they choose.

Spot on. Just a reality that most "insurgency shills" are 3 generations removed from any sort of real war experience.

Most of the people who've actually been in war explain it the same way as this: