Which discredited atheist edgelord talking point is dumber?
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  Which discredited atheist edgelord talking point is dumber?
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Question: Which discredited atheist edgelord talking point is dumber?
#1
That Jesus is a plagiarism of Horus
 
#2
That Hitler was primarily motivated by Christianity
 
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Author Topic: Which discredited atheist edgelord talking point is dumber?  (Read 2247 times)
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BRTD
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« on: October 13, 2021, 12:36:08 PM »

These two talking points are so f[inks]ing absurd it blows my mind that anyone still uses them. It's possible to criticize Christianity after all without scraping the bottom of the barrell with this nonsense.
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John Dule
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2021, 05:13:52 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2021, 07:08:55 PM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"
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Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2021, 11:37:24 PM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"

Yeah, the idea that Christianity is "stealing" anything from other religions, as if religious beliefs are IP in the modern sense and all Zsuzsanna Budapest needs to do is hire Bent Pixels to copryight-strike every YouTube video of "Ave Maria", has got to take the cake here--as, of course, does the analogous lazy non-criticism of the other big proselytizing religions.
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Big Abraham
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 11:10:49 AM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"

I mean, the Cult of Isis was part of the state religion in the imperial days in Rome.
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 11:28:24 AM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"

I mean, the Cult of Isis was part of the state religion in the imperial days in Rome.

These people curiously never have a bone to pick about that when it's done by faiths for which they don't already have an irrational animus. It would be awfully funny to hear squabbles between different pagan sects over who "stole" Inanna-Ishtar-Astarte and ought to leave her be, though.
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Samof94
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« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2021, 05:56:34 AM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.
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Nathan
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2021, 10:11:42 PM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

No it did not. Religious canons are not "intellectual property" and religious founders, even sketchy and dishonest ones like Joseph Smith, are not Ye Olde Napster.
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discovolante
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2021, 11:41:56 AM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

No it did not. Religious canons are not "intellectual property" and religious founders, even sketchy and dishonest ones like Joseph Smith, are not Ye Olde Napster.

It seems too often that a lot of the folks who accuse the Abrahamic faiths of STEALING from antecedent faiths (that surely never included any syncretic elements themselves, right?) also just don't know what they're talking about when it comes to either. In a vague discussion on religious matters in a Discord server I'm in last week, which I tend to keep a close eye on as one of the very few people there who actually practices any religion, a user who generally does very little but post about extraordinarily esoteric contemporary leftist theory pulled out the old chestnut about St. Brigid of Kildare being STOLEN, calling the pagan Brigid "the queen Celtic goddess [sic]" as though there were ever one unified Celtic mythology, let alone one where Brigid held that specific role. I declined to comment, naturally.

I think Wicca deserves a fair bit of blame here with its core principle of all historical gods and goddesses being emanations of one of each; this isn't inherently dangerous if handled with the proper sensitivity, but the Wiccan MO has always been to act like all of the historical antecedents had the same central characteristics as the Horned God and Triple Goddess, rather than assembling a composite understanding of those deities from the various aspects of ancient figures. This, of course, is central to that faith's attempts to make it seem more ancient than it actually is, lest it be perceived as STEALING anything or fundamentally representing its origins as the semen-stained woodland fantasies of a fundamentally conservative old man. I'm one to talk, given that my own interpretation of a unified divinity is heavily syncretic and drawn on several specific predecessors, but I try to acknowledge their unique identities as emanations of the whole.
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ingemann
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2021, 04:35:25 AM »

While both are incredible stupid, the Horus one wins.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2021, 12:54:44 PM »

     The second point is more toxic and damaging as it feeds into a broader atheist narrative that religion is the source of the world's ills, but the first one is dumber in the sense of being a sheer cognitive misfire on the part of whoever believes it.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2021, 10:09:55 PM »


Ironic.
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2021, 03:01:49 PM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"

Yeah, the idea that Christianity is "stealing" anything from other religions, as if religious beliefs are IP in the modern sense and all Zsuzsanna Budapest needs to do is hire Bent Pixels to copryight-strike every YouTube video of "Ave Maria", has got to take the cake here--as, of course, does the analogous lazy non-criticism of the other big proselytizing religions.

I always thought that the point of the Horus thing was not some moral indictment of Christianity for intellectual property violations, but rather an argument against its truthfulness (regardless of the veracity of the Horus link) - essentially drawing on comparative mythology to point out that Christianity’s claim to be the one true faith is rather tenuous considering that it contains tropes common in the folklore of many societies that significantly predated it.
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Hindsight was 2020
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2021, 06:11:51 PM »

Both are silly points but the 2nd point is really egregious because any basic reading of Hitler and Nazis could tell you that Hitler had little outspoken religious beliefs and if anything they were fueled by Germanic paganism
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2021, 07:12:06 PM »

Both are silly points but the 2nd point is really egregious because any basic reading of Hitler and Nazis could tell you that Hitler had little outspoken religious beliefs and if anything they were fueled by Germanic paganism

The more esoteric elements of Nazi ideology were selectively mined from pre-Christian traditions and contemporary occultism to provide an ex post facto justification for hate and establish the ideology as a state cult. The contemporary image of Germanic/Norse paganism and esotericism is colored by this co-opting to the point that most associate those traditions with Nazism, and many who practice them espouse Neo-Nazi beliefs which they claim are mutually reinforced with their "ancestral" faith, but what we do know about the pre-Christian traditions does not suggest that any of the key secular tenets of Nazi ideology stem from it. It must be noted, however, that distortions in many early sources for information on these traditions inspired Nazi ideas: in particular Tacitus' Germania, effectively a work of hearsay used to push the author's pet narrative about Germanic tribes being "noble savages" untouched by the corruption and decadence of contemporary Roman society, was latched onto by the founders of Nazism as proof in their eyes of racial supremacy.
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Tartarus Sauce
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2021, 03:43:58 PM »

Back several years ago when I was active on some atheist forums, there was a user that was peddling the second point about the Nazis being primarily motivated by Christianity. This was a forum full of atheists replete with negative feelings towards Christianity, but not a single one of them agreed with his contention.

The user in question was so enraged by his argument being rejected by all the other members that he went on a week long rage tantrum where he accused basically the entire forum of being secret Christians and then left the community.
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2021, 07:02:03 PM »

Back several years ago when I was active on some atheist forums, there was a user that was peddling the second point about the Nazis being primarily motivated by Christianity. This was a forum full of atheists replete with negative feelings towards Christianity, but not a single one of them agreed with his contention.

The user in question was so enraged by his argument being rejected by all the other members that he went on a week long rage tantrum where he accused basically the entire forum of being secret Christians and then left the community.
That reaction is refreshing at least (also amusing lol.) I've heard the Horus nonsense gets a negative reaction in most places now as well, but that doesn't mean it's gone away.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2021, 11:13:15 PM »
« Edited: November 19, 2021, 11:16:49 PM by Alben Barkley »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

No it did not. Religious canons are not "intellectual property" and religious founders, even sketchy and dishonest ones like Joseph Smith, are not Ye Olde Napster.

Oh yes it most certainly did. The Book of Mormon claims to outdate the King James Bible by thousands of years, and yet copies even MISTRANSLATED passages of it verbatim!

Joseph Smith was merely a common con artist (and criminal pedo rapist scum) with delusions of grandeur. Shamelessly copying the most widely read book in history and not expecting anyone to notice was not outside his wheelhouse, and says a lot about how little he thought of his marks/“followers.”

Mormonism does not and never has deserved to be treated as a respectable “religion.” And saying so is not at all like bad “edgelord atheist” talking points against all Christianity like those mentioned by the OP. It was clearly started as a cult more like Scientology than Christianity. Just because the LDS Church has in recent years purged the fundamentalists who refused to let go of the most bats—t insane (Adam-God doctrine), violent (blood atonement), misogynistic (polygamy), and bigoted (open racism against blacks) stuff they used to teach in the days of Smith and Brigham Young, and tried to whitewash themselves as a bunch of friendly wholesome squares, doesn’t change that.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2021, 11:14:48 PM »
« Edited: November 19, 2021, 11:18:03 PM by Alben Barkley »

Both are silly points but the 2nd point is really egregious because any basic reading of Hitler and Nazis could tell you that Hitler had little outspoken religious beliefs and if anything they were fueled by Germanic paganism

That was more of a Himmler thing. Hitler himself thought his attempts to revive German paganism were dumb. It’s pretty clear the only god Hitler believed in and wanted to be worshipped was himself.
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Nathan
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2021, 11:37:58 PM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

No it did not. Religious canons are not "intellectual property" and religious founders, even sketchy and dishonest ones like Joseph Smith, are not Ye Olde Napster.

Oh yes it most certainly did. The Book of Mormon claims to outdate the King James Bible by thousands of years, and yet copies even MISTRANSLATED passages of it verbatim!

Joseph Smith was merely a common con artist (and criminal pedo rapist scum) with delusions of grandeur. Shamelessly copying the most widely read book in history and not expecting anyone to notice was not outside his wheelhouse, and says a lot about how little he thought of his marks/“followers.”

Mormonism does not and never has deserved to be treated as a respectable “religion.” And saying so is not at all like bad “edgelord atheist” talking points against all Christianity like those mentioned by the OP. It was clearly started as a cult more like Scientology than Christianity. Just because the LDS Church has in recent years purged the fundamentalists who refused to let go of the most bats—t insane (Adam-God doctrine), violent (blood atonement), misogynistic (polygamy), and bigoted (open racism against blacks) stuff they used to teach in the days of Smith and Brigham Young, and tried to whitewash themselves as a bunch of friendly wholesome squares, doesn’t change that.

I'm not passing judgment on the literary merits of the Book of Mormon or the theological soundness of its content, Alben, merely pointing out the dangers of applying concepts like "ripoff" or "plagiarism" to the world of religious scripture. The fact that modern Bible translations tend to be copyrighted is bad enough as it is.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2021, 08:40:40 PM »

I always thought that the point of the Horus thing was not some moral indictment of Christianity for intellectual property violations, but rather an argument against its truthfulness (regardless of the veracity of the Horus link) - essentially drawing on comparative mythology to point out that Christianity’s claim to be the one true faith is rather tenuous considering that it contains tropes common in the folklore of many societies that significantly predated it.
I think that Lewis and Tolkien sort of pummeled this argument into the ground.
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DaleCooper
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2021, 09:04:48 PM »

The Hitler one is the worst arguably of any edgelord Amazing Atheist-style crap from back in the day, but if I had to pick a least favorite attack that the atheist edgelords always used, I'd pick their willful ignorance on why Christians don't follow the law of Moses. The Christian Bible explicitly states that the ceremonial and dietary laws of the Old Testament are not to be adhered to but the edgelords would always bring it up as evidence of Christian hypocrisy when there are plenty of better examples. It just went to show that they clearly had no comprehension of the thing they opposed so much.
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RussFeingoldWasRobbed
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2021, 09:21:58 PM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

No it did not. Religious canons are not "intellectual property" and religious founders, even sketchy and dishonest ones like Joseph Smith, are not Ye Olde Napster.

Oh yes it most certainly did. The Book of Mormon claims to outdate the King James Bible by thousands of years, and yet copies even MISTRANSLATED passages of it verbatim!

Joseph Smith was merely a common con artist (and criminal pedo rapist scum) with delusions of grandeur. Shamelessly copying the most widely read book in history and not expecting anyone to notice was not outside his wheelhouse, and says a lot about how little he thought of his marks/“followers.”

Mormonism does not and never has deserved to be treated as a respectable “religion.” And saying so is not at all like bad “edgelord atheist” talking points against all Christianity like those mentioned by the OP. It was clearly started as a cult more like Scientology than Christianity. Just because the LDS Church has in recent years purged the fundamentalists who refused to let go of the most bats—t insane (Adam-God doctrine), violent (blood atonement), misogynistic (polygamy), and bigoted (open racism against blacks) stuff they used to teach in the days of Smith and Brigham Young, and tried to whitewash themselves as a bunch of friendly wholesome squares, doesn’t change that.
You better warm up to them because they are going to be part of our coalition 20 years from now, right forumlurker?
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2021, 10:38:57 AM »

I always found the "Mary is actually Isis" talking point funnier than "Jesus is actually Horus", as someone who actually worships Isis. "Sorry Christoids, but the Egyptians have a monopoly on the veneration of maternal figures, and to do it yourselves is literally stealing and you should give it back!"

I always had an inkling of a suspicion that noting common tropes in religions across the world was a point in religion's favor, not against it.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2021, 12:30:08 PM »

Mormonism did rip off the King James Bible though.

> Implying scriptures rip-off things
> Implying we do not use the King James Bible
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