Joe Manchin threatens reporter asking about conflicts of interest

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Lol at the fact that a reporter felt this was newsworthy.
Stay mad.

Do you not find it newsworthy that a Senator that is personally road blocking major legislation stands to significant money both personally and for his immediate family member from the results of it?

Seems like a big deal to me

It's curious to me that the belief is that he's doing this because some kind of monetary gain or whatever, as if it's impossible that his political beliefs, independent of any nebulous commercial interest he has, could be actually driving how he votes.
If Manchin has a reason for doing something it can't be because he has actual ideology. No, no. You see, it's because he's [something relating to money].

Are you familiar with the term appearance of impropriety?

It comes up allot in various codes of ethics

Well, if you lower the threshold enough, anything can have the appearance of impropriety.

Making money off an energy company founded by you and owned by your son while chairing the energy committee doesn’t seem like a particularly low threshold.

Is there any actual evidence of Manchin basing his vote, and views on the GND and other bills more generally, purely on basis of this energy company? Or even very significantly because of it?
Or could it be because...
a) he's a moderate Democrat
b) someone extremely interested in managing optics (Manchin Cycle...)
c) not necessarily in personal agreement with 3.5 trillion
d) could be taking cover and representing many more Senate Democrats who don't agree with such high a figure
e) be interested in using his status as a key swing vote to shape the bill to his liking
there could be any number of reasons guiding Manchin, and it's silly to hold up "his energy company!" up as if it's some all-relevant totem of importance.
If there is a rider in the new bill that directly privileges his energy company in some sort of exclusive way, then you might have a point. But this is just more mudslidging from those who don't like Manchin and want to frame him the worst way possible. At least, it looks that way.

Yes, motives can be hard to untangle as long as the party in question isn’t dumb enough to leave big bags of money around saying bribe.

That is why appearance of impropriety is that standard to which government employees, court officers, and members of various professional organizations are held.
Might a reasonable person come to the conclusion that his and his immediate family’s financial stake will influence his decision making? I think it’s hard to argue that one couldn’t.

It doesn’t help that if you dig any deeper, we find the legislator in question has a very long history of abusing his various offices for personal gain, from his first term in the WV state leg when he held a hospital rates bill hostage to add a rider allowing physical therapists (like his uncle) to treat people without physician referrals, to the sorted Heather Bresch affair, to mysteriously holding the COVID until the very last second earlier this year and wouldn’t you know it, Gail Manchin got a sinecure in the federal government right after.

Even if all you said was true, that does not at all prove anything about his motivations in this specific case, and there is still not one iota of evidence for the "it's the coal company!" school of thought of explaining his rationale for taking this tack on the stimulus bill. Yes, a reasonable person can believe that Joe Manchin is somewhat influenced by what helps his family financially.
And how does Joe Manchin or his family personally profit from if the bill is 2.1 trillion or something as opposed to 3.5 trillion? It's not like the size of the stimulus is inversely proportional to his family's net worth.
As I said - if there is a rider in the new bill that directly privileges his energy company in some sort of exclusive way, then you might have a point.

Well first, if a reasonable person could assume his personal financial interests are an influence in his thinking, his actual motivations aren’t at issue. It fundamentally undermines the credibly of Mr. Manchin himself and by extension Congress.
Second, while we are narrowing the scope of this discussion to the current situation and this particular bit of Joe Manchin’s financial interests, it is a under current running through his career and touching on virtually everything he does in his office.

Mr. Manchin’s memo also stipulated a number of demands to help the fossil fuel industry. It said that, in his role as chairman of the Senate Energy Committee, he must have full control over crafting the central climate change provisions of the legislation — all but ensuring that those provisions will be far less ambitious and more fossil-fuel friendly than Mr. Biden had hoped.

In addition, the memo demands that if the legislation were to include extensions of tax credits for wind and solar power, it would not undo tax breaks for fossil fuel producers.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/09/30/us/government-shutdown-infrastructure

Now maybe you draw some moral line between ‘let’s help the industry I’m invested in against others in the sector’ and ‘let’s help my specific company’, but I don’t see where it is. Yes, there are clearly other motives, but it is impossible to disentangle the extent to which Mr. Manchin is working for the benefit of the public good and his own fortunes. Which is why conflicts of interests are bad in the first place, they undermine the legitimacy of government.

[GP270watch]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

 I won't get into all that but coal is unprofitable and dangerous for everybody involved. The government is literally propping up a dying industry in coal. Nuclear needs huge upfront costs and government investment and is potentially disastrous. Natural Gas was given huge subsidies and infrastructure investment by Bush/Cheney and then Obama and Energy Secretary Chu also expanded its use as a bridge to renewables. Even with all that fracking and natural gas has destroyed capital, it's not a self sustaining industry, we know this, it's a bust.

 There is no economic case for not switching to renewable energy it's just a matter of political will. This is without getting into the harm that fossil fuels industry is doing to the planet, you factor in that cost and the case against it is insurmountable.

[progressive85]

You tell 'em, Rambo.  (flex for me, Senator Sexy)

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

snip

Well, if it's impossible to disentangle the extent to which Mr. Manchin is working for the benefit of the public good and his own fortunes, then it is because governance is complicated, and also because the platonic ideal of the type you've repeatedly made reference to, is in reality a hard-to-attain dream at best (especially in state like West Virginia).
Those with business interests are always disproportionately involved in government because they always have a lot of political capital. The political class has always been richer than the average American as well. I'm not going to pretend Manchin is anywhere near the typical West Virginian in terms of wealth. But I do think there is plenty of ground to claim that that fact doesn't really matter in regards to his job performance.
The tendency to elect the better-off to political office is probably even stronger in poor states like West Virginia than elsewhere. In 2016 they even elected their only billionaire as Governor.
Is it really a scandal then that West Virginia's US Senator has a stake in a family-owned coal company, while also chairing the Energy Committee, if that means that at least a West Virginian is in charge of that committee? It's not like West Virginia seems to have loads of politicians in federal high office who don't have personal stakes in coal business or involvement in the business someway or another...

[Adam Griffin]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

In 2020, 30% of all new energy construction/output globally came from renewables; 90% of new global electricity production in 2020 came from renewables. At current rates, renewables will surpass coal on a global scale in the next few years as the world's primary source of electricity.

It was also the first year in the US where renewables surpassed coal for electricity (21% of all US energy production versus 19% - though obviously natural gas has played a role in the decline of coal and therefore lowered this bar; if you count nuclear as "renewable" and NG as "non-renewable", then the current US spread is 59-41 in favor of non-renewables; it was 70-30 in 2010).

It's obviously feasible on its own. The question is whether we delay the inevitable by another 5-10 years while simultaneously subsidizing dirty, dying industries. Even just cutting all subsidies to non-renewables would be a good compromise to the GND at this point.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

snip

Well, if it's impossible to disentangle the extent to which Mr. Manchin is working for the benefit of the public good and his own fortunes, then it is because governance is complicated, and also because the platonic ideal of the type you've repeatedly made reference to, is in reality a hard-to-attain dream at best (especially in state like West Virginia).
Those with business interests are always disproportionately involved in government because they always have a lot of political capital. The political class has always been richer than the average American as well. I'm not going to pretend Manchin is anywhere near the typical West Virginian in terms of wealth. But I do think there is plenty of ground to claim that that fact doesn't really matter in regards to his job performance.
The tendency to elect the better-off to political office is probably even stronger in poor states like West Virginia than elsewhere. In 2016 they even elected their only billionaire as Governor.
Is it really a scandal then that West Virginia's US Senator has a stake in a family-owned coal company, while also chairing the Energy Committee, if that means that at least a West Virginian is in charge of that committee? It's not like West Virginia seems to have loads of politicians in federal high office who don't have personal stakes in coal business or involvement in the business someway or another...

So now we’ve got government is fundamentally about the interests of the rich and at a minimum appearance of personal corruption is necessary.

I don’t know where we can go from there.
So K
Bye

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

snip

Well, if it's impossible to disentangle the extent to which Mr. Manchin is working for the benefit of the public good and his own fortunes, then it is because governance is complicated, and also because the platonic ideal of the type you've repeatedly made reference to, is in reality a hard-to-attain dream at best (especially in state like West Virginia).
Those with business interests are always disproportionately involved in government because they always have a lot of political capital. The political class has always been richer than the average American as well. I'm not going to pretend Manchin is anywhere near the typical West Virginian in terms of wealth. But I do think there is plenty of ground to claim that that fact doesn't really matter in regards to his job performance.
The tendency to elect the better-off to political office is probably even stronger in poor states like West Virginia than elsewhere. In 2016 they even elected their only billionaire as Governor.
Is it really a scandal then that West Virginia's US Senator has a stake in a family-owned coal company, while also chairing the Energy Committee, if that means that at least a West Virginian is in charge of that committee? It's not like West Virginia seems to have loads of politicians in federal high office who don't have personal stakes in coal business or involvement in the business someway or another...

So now we’ve got government is fundamentally about the interests of the rich and at a minimum appearance of personal corruption is necessary.

I don’t know where we can go from there.
So K
Bye

That is such a drastic oversimplification about my views about governance, it's not even funny. I care about the broader welfare of the overall public, taken as a whole, whatever little thing Joe Manchin might do just doesn't weigh heavily in my mind. What I know is that Manchin has been a voice for middle-of-the-road policies in the Senate and I approve of that. You probably dislike him for many of the same reasons I like him, and that's fine, reasonable people can disagree on the subject of Joe Manchin.
But whatever, it's over.
Have a nice day.

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence. 

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence.  

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

It's around 90% possibly even higher.  Don't pretend otherwise.  And the Republicans who don't like Trump but continue to support Republicans who do support Trump, enable him and his supporters.

As to the rest, I don't care.  Trump supporters engage in attacks against broad swaths of 'others' but then show themselves to be the most sensitive snowflakes alive when legitimately criticized.  I couldn't care less if a bunch of idiots can't handle being called 'idiots.'

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence.  

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

It's around 90% possibly even higher.  Don't pretend otherwise.  And the Republicans who don't like Trump but continue to support Republicans who do support Trump, enable him and his supporters.

As to the rest, I don't care.  Trump supporters engage in attacks against broad swaths of 'others' but then show themselves to be the most sensitive snowflakes alive when legitimately criticized.  I couldn't care less if a bunch of idiots can't handle being called 'idiots.'

I assume then, that you hold the Republican posters on here who I've mentioned to the same standards?

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence.  

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

It's around 90% possibly even higher.  Don't pretend otherwise.  And the Republicans who don't like Trump but continue to support Republicans who do support Trump, enable him and his supporters.

As to the rest, I don't care.  Trump supporters engage in attacks against broad swaths of 'others' but then show themselves to be the most sensitive snowflakes alive when legitimately criticized.  I couldn't care less if a bunch of idiots can't handle being called 'idiots.'

I assume then, that you hold the Republican posters on here who I've mentioned to the same standards?

Obviously.  
1.Donald Trump is a traitor so anybody who continues to support him is either a traitor or an enable of traitors.

2.The Republican Party is an extremist party that, from the definitions of Umberto Eco and Lawrence Britt, is fascist.

You tell me why I should have any respect for these horrible people. Just because they post here and may make the occasional valuable post, doesn't negate their horrible nature.

[Calthrina950]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence.  

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

It's around 90% possibly even higher.  Don't pretend otherwise.  And the Republicans who don't like Trump but continue to support Republicans who do support Trump, enable him and his supporters.

As to the rest, I don't care.  Trump supporters engage in attacks against broad swaths of 'others' but then show themselves to be the most sensitive snowflakes alive when legitimately criticized.  I couldn't care less if a bunch of idiots can't handle being called 'idiots.'

I assume then, that you hold the Republican posters on here who I've mentioned to the same standards?

Obviously.  
1.Donald Trump is a traitor so anybody who continues to support him is either a traitor or an enable of traitors.

2.The Republican Party is an extremist party that, from the definitions of Umberto Eco and Lawrence Britt, should be considered a Fascist Party.

You tell me why I should have any respect for these horrible people?  Just because they post here and may make the occasional valuable post, doesn't negate their horrible nature.

Even if they are a Republican who didn't vote for Trump? That describes several of the posters I've listed here. I've asked this question before. Would you disown family members or friends of yours if they revealed to you that they voted for the opposite political party? I'm aware you're in Canada, so that wouldn't necessarily mean that such individuals would be Trump or Republican voters.

[Benjamin Frank]

  The United States government is aimlessly propping up the failed fossil fuels industry. Renewable energy is already cheaper, will only get cheaper and can cover 100% of the energy America needs going forward we just have to make the investment.

If renewable energy was truly cheaper than fossil fuels, we wouldn't need the government to step-in with trillions of dollars of required investment.  You ever think about that?  lol

 We're trying, who's blocking it and mocking The Green New Deal...

 The special interest is blocking the obvious better choice out of self dealing, political orthodoxy(for example dumb Texas Republicans arguing Wind caused their grid failure).

 It's already cheaper:

Solar power got cheap. So why aren’t we using it more?

Del Tachi is a Republican.  By definition he's an idiot.

I must strongly disagree with you here. Someone being a Republican doesn't make them an idiot. This is just as true if someone were a Democrat, or a Green, or a Libertarian, or a Communist. This kind of rhetoric certainly doesn't help to improve matters on this forum. That's a lesson I learned from my hiatus, because I used to engage in attacks against Democrats here on the basis of their ideology.

When Democrats vote for an obvious grifter as President and continue to back him even as he attempts to pull off an insurrection and attempt to deny to themselves or to others that he was a grifter President who attempted an insurrection, then you have a valid argument.  Right now, all you are doing is engage in the logical fallacy of false equivalence.  

What you do not consider is that not all Republicans are "on board with the Trump Train", if we are to call it such. Just look at many of the posters on this forum? What about those in Congress who voted to impeach and/or convict Trump? Yes, the vast majority of that party supported him and continues to support him, but it is not a good idea to suggest that millions of Americans are traitors, because they don't support the Democratic Party or vote for Democratic candidates. And then one has to wonder why posters on this forum complain about it being an echo chamber and about hostility from the other side.

1.The 99% of Republicans who are idiots make the rest look bad.

2.Ths gets to a point I didn't make earlier: Conservatives including those here complain about hostility because they post falsehoods, like conspiratorial nonsense, and then, when their comments receive either negative feedback or get deleted, they complain they are being 'censored' or mistreated.  Lies are not opinions and getting a negative reaction for lying is not 'hostility.'  If and when Republicans show the ability again to deal with reality, then they deserve to be treated as equivalent.

There are many right-leaning posters on here (i.e. Roll Roons, Penn Quaker Girl, Old School Republican, North Carolina Yankee, PiT, etc.) who make reasoned arguments and aren't supporters of Trump. You have others who are Trump supporters (i.e. MT Treasurer, Del Tachi, Extreme Republican, etc.) who, while you may not agree with them, nevertheless do make valuable or worthy contributions to this forum. And there are other posters (i.e. SirWoodbury) who are clearly hacks or trollish in their behavior, and who are deserving of the criticisms they receive. But many posters on here are unable to distinguish between one person and the next.

And we must keep in mind that just as 51% of the country voted for Biden, 46% voted for Trump. One side completely writing off the other would be upsetting to our country's tranquility. January 6 was a disgrace, but it should not be used as justification for completely cutting off half of the electorate.

A President attempts an insurrection and you're saying that the idiots who continue to support him should not be shunned?  Completely disagree.  I suspect if the people who continued to support Trump afterwards dropped, as it rationally should have, to maybe 5%, that you would agree with shunning them.  Just because the idiots are much larger in number, doesn't alter that.

But you seem to be implying that all Trump voters, and all Republicans, should be shunned, or at least regarded in the same manner. That's not a stance that I would agree with. And my fear is that engaging in harsh rhetoric, against a broad swath of the population, would be more likely to provoke civil unrest and possibly even civil war. Those are extremes which I'd rather not approach.

It's around 90% possibly even higher.  Don't pretend otherwise.  And the Republicans who don't like Trump but continue to support Republicans who do support Trump, enable him and his supporters.

As to the rest, I don't care.  Trump supporters engage in attacks against broad swaths of 'others' but then show themselves to be the most sensitive snowflakes alive when legitimately criticized.  I couldn't care less if a bunch of idiots can't handle being called 'idiots.'

I assume then, that you hold the Republican posters on here who I've mentioned to the same standards?

Obviously.  
1.Donald Trump is a traitor so anybody who continues to support him is either a traitor or an enable of traitors.

2.The Republican Party is an extremist party that, from the definitions of Umberto Eco and Lawrence Britt, should be considered a Fascist Party.

You tell me why I should have any respect for these horrible people?  Just because they post here and may make the occasional valuable post, doesn't negate their horrible nature.

Even if they are a Republican who didn't vote for Trump? That describes several of the posters I've listed here. I've asked this question before. Would you disown family members or friends of yours if they revealed to you that they voted for the opposite political party? I'm aware you're in Canada, so that wouldn't necessarily mean that such individuals would be Trump or Republican voters.

I believe you asked specifically about posters here who continue to support Trump. But, yes, if they don't support Trump, but support people who enable Trump or act like Trump, like Ron DeathSantis, they are horrible people.

I can be more specific. I had two friends in real life who are Covidiots.  I cut off contact with both of them over a year ago and haven't missed them or their idiocy for even a second.

Edit to add:
Are all Trump supporters horrible in all areas of their lives?  I'm sure they aren't.  I'm sure many of them can be otherwise decent people and generally considerate... but:

1.This is a political forum, so it's perfectly fair to judge their level of horribleness based on their political views.

2.To completely separate a person from their political views, as if somehow politics and policy don't matter in the world at the macro level or among individuals at the micro level makes zero sense to me.  People might be more than their politics, but political views say a large part about a person's values.  

In both of the people I cut off, one had become one of the 'angry white males' who had become obsessed with white grievance politics and I told him I didn't want to hear about the maskless BLM rallies that took place in the summer of 2020.  When I told him that I also didn't think they were wise but he persisted in whining about them, I told him if he didn't stop talking about them I'd hang up on him. He continued, I hung up and I haven't heard from him since and don't care to.

The other behaved even more selfishly regarding Covid than I imagined he would.  This was before vaccines, he would both attend anti mask rallies - this was pre Delta variant and it was outside - but these protests were often in close quarters. And, he refused to wear a mask on public transit even though he knew that many of the people who take public transit are poorer and so are more likely to be immunocompromised.  Are you seriously telling me I should remain friends with such a POS?