FT: The French are right about the Americans

[Geoffrey Howe]

https://on.ft.com/3u7Mb6u

France’s anger at the submarine deal comes in several parts. Most obviously, the loss of an A$50bn contract is a severe blow to its defence industry and a still bigger one to Gallic pride. By virtue of its island territories, France is the European nation most present militarily in the Indo-Pacific. It had been building its own security partnership with Australia. The Aukus accord reduces this to dust.

What really rankles though is Biden’s almost casual breach of trust. Washington’s negotiations with Canberra went on for months. They were kept secret even as the US administration encouraged France and the EU to develop their own efforts to counter China’s more belligerent posture in the region. That counts as straightforward mendacity.

Britain has now positioned itself as Washington’s pliant partner. The rest of Europe is left with a dilemma. It can try to play the equidistance game as between China and the US. Or it can acknowledge that when the choice is between US arrogance and Chinese hegemony, there is only one side to be on. Pace Macron, it is not enough to be right.

For the record, I don't think the US has behaved well, but I find it very difficult to muster any sympathy for France.

[vitoNova]

LOL at thinking any FVEY nation would ever purchase French weaponry.

Ain't happenin'

[Meclazine for Israel]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Well, there is one especially important thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Your post appears to be missing much of what the OP's post is saying. The anger isn't only from "your defense industry beat our defense industry to a big payday", it's that we did it in secret, while speaking with a forked tongue and claiming to be allies.

[Person Man]

There’s another side to this story.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-french-sunk-the-submarine-deal-not-the-us/ar-AAOIPzr?li=BBnbfcL

I really don’t care. People have businesses to run. I’ve had people renege on verbal job offers to me and I reneged on them.

I’m upset with Biden on NordStream 2 and I think France is doing an amazing job on energy and the environment. This isn’t about my loyalty to the Democratic Party. In fact, I’m planning on becoming an independent if they can’t pass their agenda at all. Even Trump got his tax cuts and was able overturn Roe.

[beaver2.0]

The Gauls shouldn't be butting in on the affairs of the Anglosphere.  We must stand with our Ingvaeonic brothers and supply them with what they need.

[Santander]

Biden-Johnson is basically the inverse Bush-Blair at this point. Embarrassingly bad diplomatic "leadership". Biden is actually making American international relationships worse than Trump, both with allies and adversaries.

[Pres Mike]

Biden-Johnson is basically the inverse Bush-Blair at this point. Embarrassingly bad diplomatic "leadership". Biden is actually making American international relationships worse than Trump, both with allies and adversaries.

That isn't quite accurate

You think Trump wouldn't do this in a heartbeat? Or George W. Bush

American presidents have always done what was best for American interests. American workers and American companies. You don't think France would have done the same?

Australia ordered 50 billion in new submarines. France couldn't deliver so Australia shopped else where. France can be angry but that is how the world works

If I pre-order a bag from Target and they fail to deliver, I have every right to cancel my order and take my business to Walmart. Even if I am friends with the store manager of Target

[Person Man]

Biden-Johnson is basically the inverse Bush-Blair at this point. Embarrassingly bad diplomatic "leadership". Biden is actually making American international relationships worse than Trump, both with allies and adversaries.

That isn't quite accurate

You think Trump wouldn't do this in a heartbeat? Or George W. Bush

American presidents have always done what was best for American interests. American workers and American companies. You don't think France would have done the same?

Australia ordered 50 billion in new submarines. France couldn't deliver so Australia shopped else where. France can be angry but that is how the world works

If I pre-order a bag from Target and they fail to deliver, I have every right to cancel my order and take my business to Walmart. Even if I am friends with the store manager of Target

If, at McDonald’s, it’s been almost 10 minutes, I’ll just tell them I don’t want it anymore. If I wanted to pay seven dollars and wait 15 minutes for my food I would have gone to a real restaurant.

[PSOL]

First it was the Georgians…

Then it was the Afghanis…

Now it’s the French…

Tomorrow it will be the Canadians.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Biden-Johnson is basically the inverse Bush-Blair at this point. Embarrassingly bad diplomatic "leadership". Biden is actually making American international relationships worse than Trump, both with allies and adversaries.

That isn't quite accurate

You think Trump wouldn't do this in a heartbeat? Or George W. Bush

American presidents have always done what was best for American interests. American workers and American companies. You don't think France would have done the same?

Australia ordered 50 billion in new submarines. France couldn't deliver so Australia shopped else where. France can be angry but that is how the world works

If I pre-order a bag from Target and they fail to deliver, I have every right to cancel my order and take my business to Walmart. Even if I am friends with the store manager of Target

Trump would probably have made this deal exclusively because he might have liked Morrison better than Macron. I refuse to draw any equivalencies between Biden and Trump on diplomacy just because Biden ended up pissing off an ally.

[Meclazine for Israel]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Well, there is one especially important thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Are you saying that the US would not have been formed without France? Interesting.

[Alben Barkley]

We've recently found out that the French have apparently been delusional for decades (centuries?) about just how powerful they really are.

AND they are also apparently EXTREMELY sensitive about the fact that their submarine-building skills suck compared to the US.

I find it very funny how Americans are just looking on the whole thing with mild bemusement while the French just absolutely lose their s--t. Calm down, mes amies. Just because you have a military parade to celebrate the ancient times of Napoleon when you WERE actually formidable does not change the fact that you have been coasting -- hell, surviving -- on US military power since before the end of WW2. (You know, when you absolutely blew it and surrendered.)

It's OK; you can still make baguettes and take pride in your history and keep Paris a cool place for tourists to visit. But it's time to come crashing down to reality; you haven't been a serious world power since 1940. I'm sorry that apparently took 81 years to sink in, but it is what it is. It happens to all nations that are riding high at some point, probably will to us eventually (maybe sooner than later). But right now? You just don't hold any cards at all really. It's cute you have a few nukes, but so does Pakistan. Hell, so does North Korea! Does that make them great powers in the world? I don't think so.

At least the Brits accepted the fact that their empire collapsed long ago and have dealt with it; even Brexit, despite playing on nostalgia, wasn't seriously trying to make the case that the former glory of the British Empire could be restored. I find it hilariously bizarre how much pride Macron and the French seem to take in something that has been dead and buried for even longer than British power.

[Santander]

I find it very funny how Americans are just looking on the whole thing with mild bemusement while the French just absolutely lose their s--t. Calm down, mes amies. Just because you have a military parade to celebrate the ancient times of Napoleon when you WERE actually formidable does not change the fact that you have been coasting -- hell, surviving -- on US military power since before the end of WW2. (You know, when you absolutely blew it and surrendered.)

The French military has the best power projection of any military in the world after the US, and until Sarkozy, had arguably the most capable foreign intelligence service in the world. So maybe you need to calm down.

[Alben Barkley]

I find it very funny how Americans are just looking on the whole thing with mild bemusement while the French just absolutely lose their s--t. Calm down, mes amies. Just because you have a military parade to celebrate the ancient times of Napoleon when you WERE actually formidable does not change the fact that you have been coasting -- hell, surviving -- on US military power since before the end of WW2. (You know, when you absolutely blew it and surrendered.)

The French military has the best power projection of any military in the world after the US, and until Sarkozy, had arguably the most capable foreign intelligence service in the world. So maybe you need to calm down.

On what basis is their power projection greater than Russia's?

As for foreign intelligence services, well you said two key words: "arguably" and "until." So even if you could have argued at one point they were so great at it, better than the CIA and MI6 and all the Five Eyes (lol dubious), not to mention the KGB/FSB, they certainly aren't now.

As for me having to calm down... again I just find their hysterical overreaction more funny than anything lol

I mean hell, if anything they should blame Australia for breaking the deal. Or how about themselves for failing to adequately fulfill the deal??? All we did is help out an ally to pick up another ally's slack. Does that really demand recalling ambassadors???

[FT-02 Senator A.F.E. 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Well, there is one especially important thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Are you saying that the US would not have been formed without France? Interesting.

Precisely. Without the help of France, the Dutch, Spain and the Prussian general Von Steuben, the Revolution would've failed.

[Alben Barkley]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Well, there is one especially important thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Are you saying that the US would not have been formed without France? Interesting.

Precisely. Without the help of France, the Dutch, Spain and the Prussian general Von Steuben, the Revolution would've failed.

I agree that France has been one of our oldest and most valuable allies, and I'm glad they helped us out in the Revolution. But it just makes it all the more bewildering how hostile and over-the-top their response to such a seemingly minor incident has been. Again, if anything their anger would make more sense if directed instead towards Australia or even the UK. This is like getting madder at someone who hooked up with your lover because you weren't satisfying them than at your cheating lover him/herself.

I honestly think maybe Macron is just posturing to try to show in an election year that he's not a stooge for the US and even to try to advance his cause of an EU army.

[Badger]

So let me see if I have this straight.

France screws up submarine deal with Australia over massive cost overruns and delays.

 Biden administration negotiates deal with Australians to replace the French, earning American companies billions of dollars and providing thousands of jobs.

 Biden's critics complain because winning these tens of billions in contracts and thousands of  Is American jobs made France cry.

  So remind me again, at what point am I supposed to care?

[It’s so Joever]

We've recently found out that the French have apparently been delusional for decades (centuries?) about just how powerful they really are.

AND they are also apparently EXTREMELY sensitive about the fact that their submarine-building skills suck compared to the US.

I find it very funny how Americans are just looking on the whole thing with mild bemusement while the French just absolutely lose their s--t. Calm down, mes amies. Just because you have a military parade to celebrate the ancient times of Napoleon when you WERE actually formidable does not change the fact that you have been coasting -- hell, surviving -- on US military power since before the end of WW2. (You know, when you absolutely blew it and surrendered.)

It's OK; you can still make baguettes and take pride in your history and keep Paris a cool place for tourists to visit. But it's time to come crashing down to reality; you haven't been a serious world power since 1940. I'm sorry that apparently took 81 years to sink in, but it is what it is. It happens to all nations that are riding high at some point, probably will to us eventually (maybe sooner than later). But right now? You just don't hold any cards at all really. It's cute you have a few nukes, but so does Pakistan. Hell, so does North Korea! Does that make them great powers in the world? I don't think so.

At least the Brits accepted the fact that their empire collapsed long ago and have dealt with it; even Brexit, despite playing on nostalgia, wasn't seriously trying to make the case that the former glory of the British Empire could be restored. I find it hilariously bizarre how much pride Macron and the French seem to take in something that has been dead and buried for even longer than British power.

France is still definitely a formidable regional power. You’d be surprised how much they intervene in the affairs of West African countries still.

[Alben Barkley]

We've recently found out that the French have apparently been delusional for decades (centuries?) about just how powerful they really are.

AND they are also apparently EXTREMELY sensitive about the fact that their submarine-building skills suck compared to the US.

I find it very funny how Americans are just looking on the whole thing with mild bemusement while the French just absolutely lose their s--t. Calm down, mes amies. Just because you have a military parade to celebrate the ancient times of Napoleon when you WERE actually formidable does not change the fact that you have been coasting -- hell, surviving -- on US military power since before the end of WW2. (You know, when you absolutely blew it and surrendered.)

It's OK; you can still make baguettes and take pride in your history and keep Paris a cool place for tourists to visit. But it's time to come crashing down to reality; you haven't been a serious world power since 1940. I'm sorry that apparently took 81 years to sink in, but it is what it is. It happens to all nations that are riding high at some point, probably will to us eventually (maybe sooner than later). But right now? You just don't hold any cards at all really. It's cute you have a few nukes, but so does Pakistan. Hell, so does North Korea! Does that make them great powers in the world? I don't think so.

At least the Brits accepted the fact that their empire collapsed long ago and have dealt with it; even Brexit, despite playing on nostalgia, wasn't seriously trying to make the case that the former glory of the British Empire could be restored. I find it hilariously bizarre how much pride Macron and the French seem to take in something that has been dead and buried for even longer than British power.

France is still definitely a formidable regional power. You’d be surprised how much they intervene in the affairs of West African countries still.

Now here, "regional" is the key word.

I don't deny that they are still a strong regional power. Not by any means. But fact is they can't even realistically be considered the leader of the EU; that's Germany. They are number two at best even within the EU alone. UK is probably still slightly stronger than both (though that may now be debatable), and none are even close to on the same level as Russia, China, or the US. Those are the only three countries that can realistically be considered "world powers" nowadays, and the US remains the only one that is still a full-blown superpower.

Now, if they all joined together (UK included) and actually did form a united EU military, THAT would be a different story. But I don't see it happening in our lifetimes.

[Santander]

France has a bigger empire than the UK (permanent military presence on every continent and ocean except the Arctic) and has Charles de Gaulle, which makes it one of only two truly blue-water navies in the world. Plus, from a technology/arms exports perspective, France is by far the leading European country behind Russia. Britain basically only has BAE.

China is of course by the bigger geopolitical power based on economic weight alone, but their military is still rather poor, and they have no power projection outside East and Southeast Asia.

[progressive85]

I don't think America owes France anything.

The USA lost around ~200,000 troops invading and defending France before liberating them.

France's arrogance towards the USA about military trade is abhorrent.

Yes I agree.... USA saved the world in World War II... we really did, that's not an exaggeration.

Any French hostility towards the Americans now might just resurrect the Freedom Fry Movement into the Congressional Cafeteria.

I'm sure it will be one of Speaker McCarthy's top priorities in January 2023.

[Alben Barkley]

France has a bigger empire than the UK (permanent military presence on every continent and ocean except the Arctic) and has Charles de Gaulle, which makes it one of only two truly blue-water navies in the world. Plus, from a technology/arms exports perspective, France is by far the leading European country behind Russia. Britain basically only has BAE.

China is of course by the bigger geopolitical power based on economic weight alone, but their military is still rather poor, and they have no power projection outside East and Southeast Asia.

More aircraft carriers or technically, slightly more powerful military and/or larger arms industry does not alone make a country more powerful. Germany>>>France based on economic might alone. It really would not be that hard to imagine Germany using their economic power to churn out a more powerful military that could overrun France practically overnight if they really wanted to... Again...

Going purely by current "power projection" in the sense of who has ships in the ocean right now that could get anywhere in the world if they wanted to is simply not necessarily the best metric of actual power in today's day and age. The very idea that France is more powerful in any meaningful way than China or Russia is absurd on its face. Navies quite frankly are not even close to the most important factor in military power alone today, let alone a nation's total power. In that sense the US is in a class of its own, followed relatively closely by China and Russia. And then Germany, France, and the UK all distantly trail behind fairly close to one another.

In any sense I don't see what this conversation has to do with my original point, which is that France is bizzarely acting like it's somehow in the same overall league as the US, China, or Russia rather than with Germany or the UK, when we are clearly the FBS and they are clearly the FCS. Again, if they all joined together as one EU, they could rival us, but that just ain't the case and ain't going to be any time soon.

Moreover, the REAL point was that it's hilarious how insecure France is acting and how much of a chip on their shoulder they seem to have. Like... it's not the end of the world if your crummy outdated submarine tech is leagues behind the US. If the Aussies got tired of waiting for you to fulfill your contract with anything worth a damn, how is that our problem? How does it make us the bad guys because we could actually fulfill that contract? How is such a petty squabble worth going to DEFCON 1 and starting an international incident with one of your closest allies over? Still seems pretty stupid and baffling to me. And frankly does seem more like a product of pure, misplaced pride than anything else.

[Person Man]

So let me see if I have this straight.

France screws up submarine deal with Australia over massive cost overruns and delays.

 Biden administration negotiates deal with Australians to replace the French, earning American companies billions of dollars and providing thousands of jobs.

 Biden's critics complain because winning these tens of billions in contracts and thousands of  Is American jobs made France cry.

  So remind me again, at what point am I supposed to care?

MALARkEY mAn BaD