Growing Hostility towards Evangelical Christians on Atlas

[Hindsight was 2020]

I have been on this forum for one year and three months and the hostility towards Evangelical Christians I have noticed in recent weeks is not really anomalous compared to all the rest of my time here. While I dislike said hostility, I am not sure this post - which honestly sounds like you have a short memory - helps your case.

On another note, I cannot look at your "belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation" without getting reminded of your history of equivocating as to whether Catholics - like myself - are Christian.

The answer is yes.

But the problem is that Jesus is clouded by all that other stuff in the church, a lot of which is actively harmful. Like how many LGBT people have been turned off to Christ by being raised Catholic? It's like if you're packing for a flight in a hurry but you don't need to carry a lot...but you pack a ton anyway, making it possible to overlook and more difficult to find the important thing you're trying to pack. Or as I heard one pastor put it "Catholicism is Jesus + works, we believe in Jesus + nothing."

Normally by this point I’d just pull up that South Park doll meme with caption “alright BRTD, show us here on the doll where the Catholic Church touched you” but considering my church’s history on that subject it’s probably best not to

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have been on this forum for one year and three months and the hostility towards Evangelical Christians I have noticed in recent weeks is not really anomalous compared to all the rest of my time here. While I dislike said hostility, I am not sure this post - which honestly sounds like you have a short memory - helps your case.

On another note, I cannot look at your "belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation" without getting reminded of your history of equivocating as to whether Catholics - like myself - are Christian.

The answer is yes.

But the problem is that Jesus is clouded by all that other stuff in the church, a lot of which is actively harmful. Like how many LGBT people have been turned off to Christ by being raised Catholic? It's like if you're packing for a flight in a hurry but you don't need to carry a lot...but you pack a ton anyway, making it possible to overlook and more difficult to find the important thing you're trying to pack. Or as I heard one pastor put it "Catholicism is Jesus + works, we believe in Jesus + nothing."

A lot of the same criticisms could be applied to various Protestant sects, though, where LGBT people have been denounced in arguably much more vocal ways.

I mean check out jesus-is-savior. This is not a Catholic website. (I haven't taken the time to figure out what brand of fundie the author is, nor do I very much care to.) It's an extreme example for sure, but I doubt you would be happier in what ever church this guy belongs to than the Catholic Church, which even takes a wink and a nod to LGBT issues in some parishes.

Yes I'm aware. They too should be condemned. My church offers a sanctuary for LGBT people from both them and Catholicism!

The bizarre mindset on this forum though is that it only should for the conservative Protestant sects. That it's totally finally for people from conservative Protestantism to convert to liberal Protestantism, but it's never OK for Catholics to convert to any type of Protestant because "that's not how things are supposed to work" or whatever but it is OK for them to become atheist, so basically the mindset is people raised Protestant can be whatever they want but people raised Catholic have only a binary choice of Catholic or nothing. It's a truly perplexing mindset that I can not understand in the slightest.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

It's is a bit of an easier target than some religious traditions since the boundaries of what is or isn't "Evangelical" isn't always clearly defined, so people can engage in some motte-and-bailey arguments based on their own stereotypes of what the term includes.    But people here also feel pretty free to attack Hasidim, or Catholics who follow the church's teachings on matters of family and sexual morality.    And it's nothing new.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

They hate us because they ain’t us, ER!

White men from suburbia? That describes 95% of the people here

I was obviously referring to evangelicals in suburbia, the third most oppressed group after gamers and Nikki Haley haters.

Ah, right after Native Americans, Blacks, Women, Latinos, Trans people, Gay people, LGBTQ people in general, single moms, service industry employees, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, mormons, residents of California, people in North Korea, people in literally all of Africa/central asia, Women under Taliban rule, and moderate Republicans.



Anyway, I just can't respect anyone who thinks I go to hell simply because I'm Jewish.


Basically, ExtremeRepublican thinks anyone not like him will go to hell, while those who are will, regardless of how much they have contributed to the world. So Gandhi is rotting in hell under these rules.

And since you don't think Catholicism is Christianity, even Jesus is in hell, since Evangelism was invented after he died. I'm literally using your logic.

[Donerail]

If you are "turned off" from Christianity because you were raised with the expectation that you should also do good works...

It's not "good" works though, but rather very legalistic junk, and in this case what turns LGBT people off isn't even so much that but rather obviously the teaching that their sexual orientation is inherently wrong and any relationships based on it is sinful.

Or as I heard one pastor put it "Catholicism is Jesus + works, we believe in Jesus + nothing."

The pastor's quote here seem to be referring to the sola fide issue, not to the complexity of church hierarchy.

[7,052,770]

In particular, recently, the belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation has been roundly mocked on this forum in recent weeks.

It's a terribly sh*tty thing to believe, given the low % of humanity that are Christian, and absolutely affects the worldview of people who believe it, and how they look at current events and history.

It would be one thing if Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Catholics, etc., all believed something like that that and it was just a normal aspect of religion and the human experience, but that's just not the case - it's not literally unheard of, but it's pretty rare outside of Evangelical Christians.

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

oppressed group

Trans people

No no no, don't you get it, TFM? Transphobia is imaginary and doesn't exist.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If you are "turned off" from Christianity because you were raised with the expectation that you should also do good works...

It's not "good" works though, but rather very legalistic junk, and in this case what turns LGBT people off isn't even so much that but rather obviously the teaching that their sexual orientation is inherently wrong and any relationships based on it is sinful.

Or as I heard one pastor put it "Catholicism is Jesus + works, we believe in Jesus + nothing."

The pastor's quote here seem to be referring to the sola fide issue, not to the complexity of church hierarchy.

Yes but he's not one at my church, just giving a rough example.

Anyway I know the Catholic high school in Bismarck is incredibly legalistic, like actually banning "unnatural" dyed hair colors and actually claiming that's against God, (at least they did when I was in high school, can't speak for now.)

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

The bizarre mindset on this forum though is that it only should for the conservative Protestant sects. That it's totally finally for people from conservative Protestantism to convert to liberal Protestantism, but it's never OK for Catholics to convert to any type of Protestant because "that's not how things are supposed to work" or whatever but it is OK for them to become atheist, so basically the mindset is people raised Protestant can be whatever they want but people raised Catholic have only a binary choice of Catholic or nothing. It's a truly perplexing mindset that I can not understand in the slightest.

This supposed mindset only exists in your mind lmao. I have never seen anything like that on the forum, let alone enough times to consider it a collective "mindset". Why you would come up with such strange ideas, of course, is a truly perplexing thing that I can not understand in the slightest.

[Hindsight was 2020]

...from God that applies to all sex

Oh please, oh please don't say hetero--

including heterosexual sex

Dammit!

[TJ in Oregon]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

Hey, you're talking like evangelicals are just a bunch of people doing their thing and being attacked for no reason. Let's not forget that people like ER want to make the life of every single lgbt person a living hell and to persecute women who have abortions (and also do extreme things like invade countries that don't ban abortion and execute abortion doctors if I remember correctly)!
So sorry that I'm not just bowing and accepting that it's ok to prevent me from living my life!

[Хahar 🤔]

I basically agree with the thrust of this thread. Everyone here has had their whole lives to be acquainted with the doctrine of justification by faith alone; this is in no way novel or unusual. One can debate the merits of the notion that all who do not accept Jesus as God are damned (and in fact we have a board for discussion of such issues), but it often we see that rather than engaging with a poster's points, another poster accuses them for being a bad person for holding that belief. That doesn't contribute to meaningful discussion in any way, and it makes this forum a less interesting place to post and read.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The bizarre mindset on this forum though is that it only should for the conservative Protestant sects. That it's totally finally for people from conservative Protestantism to convert to liberal Protestantism, but it's never OK for Catholics to convert to any type of Protestant because "that's not how things are supposed to work" or whatever but it is OK for them to become atheist, so basically the mindset is people raised Protestant can be whatever they want but people raised Catholic have only a binary choice of Catholic or nothing. It's a truly perplexing mindset that I can not understand in the slightest.

This supposed mindset only exists in your mind lmao. I have never seen anything like that on the forum, let alone enough times to consider it a collective "mindset". Why you would come up with such strange ideas, of course, is a truly perplexing thing that I can not understand in the slightest.

Well for example Gully Foyle a truly HORRENDOUS poster whose garbage I've been been bemoaning for over a decade once said something along the lines of "If you're practicing a different religion than your parents or maybe your spouse, there's a problem."

If it wasn't super late I could dig up other threads but a lot of Europeans seemed to have a difficult time grasping that in the US religious identity is basically self-selected (in the US even people who are the same religion as their parents made a conscious decision to stay that) and thus tried to just deny that.

[7,052,770]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

It's extremely generous for you, as a Catholic, to refer to Evangelical beliefs as "truth," when the vast majority of them would never do the same back to you.

[afleitch]

As much as I dislike Evangelical Christianity in any flavour, I don't deny to you, what some flavours deny to me.

[Torie]

What I find annoying personally is using theological arguments to argue in favor of some policy in the public square. For those who are not religious, such arguments carry no weight, and seem almost an imposition outside of the religion board.

To use a rather self centered example, using theological arguments to argue in favor of some policy position on LBGTQ issues, causes me to run screaming to the exits of a thread. (Yes, I am well aware that the authors of the Bible and some other religious tracts had issues with gays, thank you very much.)

Anyway, those of faith should bear in mind that inserting religious considerations into posts on boards that are focused on secular policy can be annoying and inconsiderate to those who are not religious.

[Continential]

Well for example Gully Foyle a truly HORRENDOUS poster

[Never Made it to Graceland]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

The darkness outside is people being gay openly, right?
If that's what you're getting at, it is rather concerning that someone with this extremist mindset is a moderator here. It would certainly explain some of the more baffling, unexplained removal decisions I've seen in the past.

[Torie]

Well for example Gully Foyle a truly HORRENDOUS poster

I think they had a personal feud thing going. I don't think BRTD's opinion was wildly shared. It certainly was not by me.

[Torie]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

The darkness outside is people being gay openly, right?
If that's what you're getting at, it is rather concerning that someone with this extremist mindset is a moderator here. It would certainly explain some of the more baffling, unexplained removal decisions I've seen in the past.

The text does not say that. The text says that to the extent the Christians an outsider knows are kind to him even though the outsider disdains them - which the outsider finds a most uncommon reaction as compared to others (to turn the other cheek), and the outsider comes to appreciate the difference, at that point the animus of the outsider may begin to dissipate.

Another way to put it, is that if you treat those with whom you disagree, and/or the other, in a classy way, over time the animus should subside.

And that is the TJ I know and respect, and was the reason way back when I sponsored him to become a Mod.

Thank you.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     While Atlas hostility towards Evangelicals is very bad, the response from the left to this thread make it clear that this hostility is largely based in a secular liberal conviction that everything is political and that Evangelicals merely have the wrong politics. If that hostility is growing (which I am unsure of given my long-term experience on the forum), it is primarily because hostility in society as a whole is growing and a drive to be charitable to your opponents is decreasing.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

The darkness outside is people being gay openly, right?
If that's what you're getting at, it is rather concerning that someone with this extremist mindset is a moderator here. It would certainly explain some of the more baffling, unexplained removal decisions I've seen in the past.

The text does not say that. The text says that to the extent the Christians an outsider knows are kind to him even though the outsider disdains them - which the outsider finds a most uncommon reaction as compared to others (to turn the other cheek), and the outsider comes to appreciate the difference, at that point the animus of the outsider may begin to dissipate.

Another way to put it, is that if you treat those with whom you disagree, and/or the other, in a classy way, over time the animus should subside.

And that is the TJ I know and respect, and was the reason way back when I sponsored him to become a Mod.

Thank you.

     And as I was commenting on charitableness declining, I saw you cogently and lovingly explain TJ's point to someone who entirely misread him. I am reminded that even if the forum isn't very good overall these days, there are still people who care and whose posts are worth reading.

[Hindsight was 2020]

     While Atlas hostility towards Evangelicals is very bad, the response from the left to this thread make it clear that this hostility is largely based in a secular liberal conviction that everything is political and that Evangelicals merely have the wrong politics. If that hostility is growing (which I am unsure of given my long-term experience on the forum), it is primarily because hostility in society as a whole is growing and a drive to be charitable to your opponents is decreasing.

Because “attacks on my religious freedom” like OP is going on about when pressed upon comes down to the political issues of gay rights and abortion. Whenever people in this country complain about Christianity and in particular evangelicals being under attack they aren’t talking about the right to go to church or worship god, they are talking about their perceived god given right to discriminate against gay people

[Never Made it to Graceland]

Large portions of the world, including most of the Atlas Forum hate you and always will. If they don't, you are probably doing something wrong. That's simply a result of standing for something. Truth is inherently divisive. Never change your beliefs from pressure.

They will hate you and you have to love them anyway. And until that is something an outsider sees from the Christians they know and not from everyone else, it's going to keep getting darker outside.

The darkness outside is people being gay openly, right?
If that's what you're getting at, it is rather concerning that someone with this extremist mindset is a moderator here. It would certainly explain some of the more baffling, unexplained removal decisions I've seen in the past.

The text does not say that. The text says that to the extent the Christians an outsider knows are kind to him even though the outsider disdains them - which the outsider finds a most uncommon reaction as compared to others (to turn the other cheek), and the outsider comes to appreciate the difference, at that point the animus of the outsider may begin to dissipate.

Another way to put it, is that if you treat those with whom you disagree, and/or the other, in a classy way, over time the animus should subside.

And that is the TJ I know and respect, and was the reason way back when I sponsored him to become a Mod.

Thank you.

You are being very charitable towards TJ, at least as I've experienced him as a commenter and moderator.