Growing Hostility towards Evangelical Christians on Atlas

[Dr. MB]

With hindsight most of the lockdowns and closing stuff was unnecessary in 2020 but I guess we didn't know how the virus worked at the time. Pretty much everywhere being opened up would have worked fine just with masks and social distancing.

[DC Al Fine]

The impetus for this thread isn't "hostility towards Evangelical Christians" - no-one is being hostile towards them. 

The past couple years, I've had at least three posters suggest that the state should take away my children and put them in foster care, and another who said that I keep my children chained in my basement and abuse them day and night.

In each instance the poster either made such claims in response to my posting about common Evangelical opinions or practices, and in one case was in response to a post I made opposing hijab bans, and explcitly referenced my Evangelicalism. To top it all off, I don't even spend much time on the nastier subforums like US General Discussion.

The notion that Atlas does not have a signficant minority that are bigoted against Evangelicals is complete and utter nonsense.

Do you think this only impacts blue avatars/evangelicals?

A blue avatar accused me of probably being a literal "murderer" last week because I disagreed with their CA recall projections (which he was wrong about).

No one should be throwing around nasty insults, blue or red, and that person shouldn't have said that, but my goodness if that isn't one of the most blatant examples of moving the goal posts I've ever seen.

[Non Swing Voter]

The impetus for this thread isn't "hostility towards Evangelical Christians" - no-one is being hostile towards them. 

The past couple years, I've had at least three posters suggest that the state should take away my children and put them in foster care, and another who said that I keep my children chained in my basement and abuse them day and night.

In each instance the poster either made such claims in response to my posting about common Evangelical opinions or practices, and in one case was in response to a post I made opposing hijab bans, and explcitly referenced my Evangelicalism. To top it all off, I don't even spend much time on the nastier subforums like US General Discussion.

The notion that Atlas does not have a signficant minority that are bigoted against Evangelicals is complete and utter nonsense.

Do you think this only impacts blue avatars/evangelicals?

A blue avatar accused me of probably being a literal "murderer" last week because I disagreed with their CA recall projections (which he was wrong about).

No one should be throwing around nasty insults, blue or red, and that person shouldn't have said that, but my goodness if that isn't one of the most blatant examples of moving the goal posts I've ever seen.

It's not at all.  When a blue avatar says horrendous off-topic things there is typically no consequence and no threads about how there is hostility to red avatars.

And quite frankly, how many of these evangelical threads do we need?  You'd think evangelicals were a tarnished minority group without a voice, when the reality is they are way overrepresented in politics and here.

[Devout Centrist]

As evidenced by some of the responses in this thread, there's no shortage of posters who either too vacuous or too ideological to engage in a serious discussion about religion. I should know because I used to be that person!

Surely the worst offenders (*cough* Zinneke *cough*) should be escorted off the premises for their borderline psychopathic rants against religion. I also empathize with some evangelical posters who find themselves dogpiled by a neverending stream of bad faith arguments from the usual suspects. These types of comments aren't productive and add next to nothing to the conversation.

All that being said: This is a political forum at the end of the day. The impact of Evangelical Christianity on political discourse is unmistakable and the two concepts are often inseparable. The vast majority of evangelical posters here want to articulate a political message of some kind. Arguments around those ideas will inevitably get quite heated. This is nothing new. Anyone who remembers online political debate in the 2000s would feel right at home in the forums of today.

This makes empathy and respect all that more important. I respect the right for evagelicals to advocate for an explicitly political message here. In turn, there must be respect for LGBT (emphasis on the T, since there are a great many people here who love hating on Trans folks) people and their viewpoints. This has been severly lacking in the past, but has gotten better over the past decade.

Also, the incident that appears to have sparked this thread, a post in the "would you date a bisexual?" thread, appears to be gentle ribbing more than anything else? Sometimes people will poke fun at your beliefs; that's part of the assumed risk of posting on Atlas forum. When it crosses the line into harassment and threats, then it becomes a major issue.

[Ferguson97]

I have also seen mischaracterizations about Christian views on sexuality, suggesting that they are hateful, rather than a commandment from God that applies to all sex- including heterosexual sex- outside a Biblical marriage. 

This is like saying that "I'm not a sexist for saying wives should submit to their husbands, because it's the word of God."

Bigotry that stems from religious belief is still bigotry.

Aren't the members of the Taliban who force women to wear burqas just following the word of God?

Stop trying to force your religious beliefs on to the rest of us, and we'll treat your beliefs with more respect.

[HisGrace]

Well I've gone on the record before as saying organized religion and specifically Christianity are not good things, but at the moment there are some people who need religion. The problem is society has failed to develop any kind of reason based secular morality that makes sense and is compelling to a critical mass of people  (i.e, not "speak your truth" post modern crap). In the absence of that we're always going to have religion whether I like it or not.

In particular, recently, the belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation has been roundly mocked on this forum in recent weeks.  For Christians who take the Bible as the literal and inerrant Word of God, that is a central belief that informs how we interact with the world- because we love everyone and want everyone to have eternal life.

This has never upset me to be honest because I know I'm not going to hell so I don't care if anyone else thinks I am.

I have also seen mischaracterizations about Christian views on sexuality, suggesting that they are hateful, rather than a commandment from God that applies to all sex- including heterosexual sex- outside a Biblical marriage.  I try to share Biblical Truth as lovingly as I know how (on both of the issues referenced in this post).  I fully acknowledge that I'm certainly not perfect at that, though.

A "Biblical marriage" is not an option for gay people though so it's still a bigoted mindset. Some moderate denominations still denounce fornication but support gay marriage which I would view as an acceptable position although I still don't agree with it. Although how much support there is for that from the actual biblical text is pretty questionable.

The hostility of many on this forum to evangelical Christianity would never fly if similar comments were said about literally any other religious tradition. 

Also agree with this although my solution would be for liberals and the left to be tougher on the regressive elements of Islam instead of making excuses while continuing to criticize Christianity as well.

[Non Swing Voter]

Well I've gone on the record before as saying organized religion and specifically Christianity are not good things, but at the moment there are some people who need religion. The problem is society has failed to develop any kind of reason based secular morality that makes sense and is compelling to a critical mass of people  (i.e, not "speak your truth" post modern crap). In the absence of that we're always going to have religion whether I like it or not.

In particular, recently, the belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation has been roundly mocked on this forum in recent weeks.  For Christians who take the Bible as the literal and inerrant Word of God, that is a central belief that informs how we interact with the world- because we love everyone and want everyone to have eternal life.

This has never upset me to be honest because I know I'm not going to hell so I don't care if anyone else thinks I am.

I have also seen mischaracterizations about Christian views on sexuality, suggesting that they are hateful, rather than a commandment from God that applies to all sex- including heterosexual sex- outside a Biblical marriage.  I try to share Biblical Truth as lovingly as I know how (on both of the issues referenced in this post).  I fully acknowledge that I'm certainly not perfect at that, though.

A "Biblical marriage" is not an option for gay people though so it's still a bigoted mindset. Some moderate denominations still denounce fornication but support gay marriage which I would view as an acceptable position although I still don't agree with it. Although how much support there is for that from the actual biblical text is pretty questionable.

The hostility of many on this forum to evangelical Christianity would never fly if similar comments were said about literally any other religious tradition. 

Also agree with this although my solution would be for liberals and the left to be tougher on the regressive elements of Islam instead of making excuses while continuing to criticize Christianity as well.

My position is that most of the religious people who have contempt for other religions are very much like the people they have contempt for.  I don't care what religion people practice I just want them to stop shoving it in everyone else's face and that goes equally for all religions.  The reason Islam gets less attention is because you don't have a well cultivated movement in this country surrounding getting Islam into schools, law, government buildings, etc. etc. etc.  If that were the case it would probably be just as big a focus of liberals. 

[Mr. Illini]

Considering how large a share of the board identifies as LGBT, it’s a shock that there isn’t more hostility toward Evangelical Christianity.

You reap what you sow! And Evangelicals have been sowing for a long time…

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

Can a transgender person enter a Biblical marriage? [...] If I had my very Christian but very allied brother officiate, would I have a loophole (provided my prospective wife was a cisgender woman, of course)?

Just want to make sure ER sees this and actually answers me before this thread is inevitably locked for being the damnable sh**tfest it is.

I will pray about how to answer that question and PM you the answer.  I haven't responded because I want to make sure I answer it right.

I think you know the answer (or, at the very least, have prayed on it by now), and you're just thinking of a polite way to say it. Don't worry if you come off as an asshole, I promise I won't bite.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

Even I'm only 0.5/5 on those.  I say 0.5 because I believe that speaking in tongues can be legitimate, but I don't have the gift of tongues myself and believe that it's best done privately and not for show if you have the gift.

[Never Made it to Graceland]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

Even I'm only 0.5/5 on those.  I say 0.5 because I believe that speaking in tongues can be legitimate, but I don't have the gift of tongues myself and believe that it's best done privately and not for show if you have the gift.

Lol.

It's beyond time to lock this dumb thread.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

All or most evangelicals believing in prosperity gospel is something that people say on here every now and then.   

See also the frequent "Evangelicals only support Israel because they want it to be destroyed so the End Times happens sooner" or related claims.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

All or most evangelicals believing in prosperity gospel is something that people say on here every now and then.   

See also the frequent "Evangelicals only support Israel because they want it to be destroyed so the End Times happens sooner" or related claims.

Yeah, how often I hear people acting like all evangelicals are Joel Osteen is astounding...when most evangelicals I know think Osteen is a heretic.

[The Arizonan]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

All or most evangelicals believing in prosperity gospel is something that people say on here every now and then.   

See also the frequent "Evangelicals only support Israel because they want it to be destroyed so the End Times happens sooner" or related claims.

Yeah, how often I hear people acting like all evangelicals are Joel Osteen is astounding...when most evangelicals I know think Osteen is a heretic.

I'm very skeptical of people like Joel Osteen who go on television and preach such material. They always seem to be chasing money.

[Santander]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

All or most evangelicals believing in prosperity gospel is something that people say on here every now and then.   

See also the frequent "Evangelicals only support Israel because they want it to be destroyed so the End Times happens sooner" or related claims.

This part is true, it's just many Evangelicals don't bother or are incapable of tracing back the reasoning.

[Calthrina950]

I am not an evangelical Christian. In fact, I don't consider myself to be particularly religious, although I do believe that there is a God and I do tend to find comfort in certain religious sayings, or from certain expressions of faith. I certainly don't agree with much of what ExtremeRepublican believes in. However, I oppose discriminating against people on the basis of any of their characteristics, whether that be their race, religion, gender, creed, sexual orientation, or national origin. Thus, on the one hand, I don't condone those who go out of their way to mock evangelical Christians or to imply that they are "backwards" or contribute nothing of value to our society.

But on the other hand, I don't think that gay people should be denied their right to marry, or transgender people denied their right to transition as they feel necessary, because of the religious beliefs held by someone else. This is a country with separation of church and state, with a First Amendment that guarantees freedom of religion, and a Fourteenth Amendment that guarantees the equal protection of the laws. What this means is that every faith should be free to believe and to practice as they wish, but no faith or no practice should be given preference under our laws, or that religious belief be allowed to harm others.

[Fuzzy Bear]

In recent weeks, I've noticed a lot of hostility towards evangelical Christianity on this forum.  While most of these posts haven't necessarily been reportable individually, they are currently collectively making it very difficult for evangelicals to post candidly and boldly about our faith.

In particular, recently, the belief that Christianity is the only path to Salvation has been roundly mocked on this forum in recent weeks.  For Christians who take the Bible as the literal and inerrant Word of God, that is a central belief that informs how we interact with the world- because we love everyone and want everyone to have eternal life.

I have also seen mischaracterizations about Christian views on sexuality, suggesting that they are hateful, rather than a commandment from God that applies to all sex- including heterosexual sex- outside a Biblical marriage.  I try to share Biblical Truth as lovingly as I know how (on both of the issues referenced in this post).  I fully acknowledge that I'm certainly not perfect at that, though.

The hostility of many on this forum to evangelical Christianity would never fly if similar comments were said about literally any other religious tradition.  And, before you say that it's because we are "advantaged", I would push back on that.  Evangelicals see very little representation in entertainment, for example (and, when we are represented, it's usually a cartoonish portrayal).

We are certainly not "advantaged" worldwide. 

We are not advantaged in Sudan.  We are not advantaged in India.  We are not advantaged in China.  Indeed, when one goes outside the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church we are not advantaged in Mexico or Russia (although some of the most intense revivals are occurring in South and Central America). 

We are certainly not advantaged in the Arab World.  We are certainly not advantaged in Indonesia.

I will leave it to the reader to decide how advantaged we are in the poorer parts of Appalachia. 

As CELTICEMPIRE has pointed out in past posts, Evangelical Christianity isn't a political strategy to win the religious right to the GOP.  Indeed, if the GOP abandoned its support for issues we consider to be of importance (abortion, religious liberty, to name two) we'd abandon them without thinking twice.  At this moment in time, a "Biblical Checklist" of issue positions and a measuring of partisan attitudes toward Evangelical Christians would certainly come out in favor of the GOP.  (Democrats are overtly hostile to Evangelical Christians, and I have more respect for those that admit that then those that deny that, btw.)  This state of affairs is one of the here and now, and it is also relative.  God does not need the GOP to accomplish His Will on Earth.  Christians do, however, have a need to conform their own beliefs and actions to the Will of God in order to please Him and because we love Him.

CELTICEMPIRE has also posted in the past that we Evangelical Christians have been in the world long before the GOP was even an idea, and we'll be here long after the GOP ceases to exist, should Jesus tarry.

ExtremeRepublican is right; there IS increasing hostility toward Evangelical Christians on this site.  And it's tolerated because of people's unwillingness to be fair.  There would be (and has been) far more hostility shown toward the stupidity of, say, Jerry Falwell, Jr. than there has been toward the anti-Semitism of Louis Farrakhan, and Linda Sarsour is received uncritically, whereas a Christian who would actually agree with Linda Sarsour about the role of women in society would be utterly pilloried.  Let those who disagree with me explicitly condemn the others. 

The reason this happens is the leftist principle of "allyship".  It's a 21st century example of the enemy of one's enemy being one's friend, in which case, adherence to principle, no matter how important or relevant, is flushed down the toilet.  "Allyship" implies "enemies".  I know where I stand in the eyes of some.  That's OK, too; one's enemies are a testament to one's character as much as one's friends are at times.

[afleitch]

What I find interesting is that in a forum that's 40%+ LGBTQ+ (and has been for a decade of more) as well as overwhelming accepting of such traits, this forum could easily have set rules for itself, based on protecting it's membership, that excluded or outright banned conservative Christians completely for expressing contrary views.

It hasn't. If anything it's been tolerant of such views, even in appointing mods.

A strongly 'queer' space has been far more open and respectful of difference than most online or in person conservative Christian spaces.

[Torie]

What I find interesting is that in a forum that's 40%+ LGBTQ+ (and has been for a decade of more) as well as overwhelming accepting of such traits, this forum could easily have set rules for itself, based on protecting it's membership, that excluded or outright banned conservative Christians completely for expressing contrary views.

It hasn't. If anything it's been tolerant of such views, even in appointing mods.

A strongly 'queer' space has been far more open and respectful of difference than most online or in person conservative Christian spaces.

What most likely has facilitated the LGBTQ tolerance quotient, is that in the public square over the past 15 years or so, when "Evangelical Christians" and LGBTQ have been in opposition to each other, the EC side has been almost invariably on the losing side. If the reverse had been true, the anger level and intolerance level here would have been much higher I would think. It's easier to be tolerant when you get your way, and the "opposition" seems to have proved itself relatively toothless.

[Non Swing Voter]

What I find interesting is that in a forum that's 40%+ LGBTQ+ (and has been for a decade of more) as well as overwhelming accepting of such traits, this forum could easily have set rules for itself, based on protecting it's membership, that excluded or outright banned conservative Christians completely for expressing contrary views.

It hasn't. If anything it's been tolerant of such views, even in appointing mods.

A strongly 'queer' space has been far more open and respectful of difference than most online or in person conservative Christian spaces.

If anything, it's been overly tolerant.  Many of the evangelical viewpoints and statements made on controversial topics here would get someone fired from a private sector job for promoting discriminatory views among other things.  Here they are pretty much allowed to say whatever they want under the guise of "free expression," liability be damned.   

[R.P. McM]

I don't have a problem with criticism of Evangelical beliefs, as long as it's criticism of things that Evangelicals actually believe and not a caricature of Evangelical Christianity.

This doesn't really happen here often, but I've gathered that some people at places like DU and some parts of Reddit basically believe that almost all or at least the majority of evangelicals believe in snake handling, prosperity theology, speaking in tongues, Calvinistic predestination and KJV-Onlyism, which is laughable because not only do the majority of evangelicals not believe in any of those, it'd be almost impossible to find one who believes in all.

Even I'm only 0.5/5 on those.  I say 0.5 because I believe that speaking in tongues can be legitimate, but I don't have the gift of tongues myself and believe that it's best done privately and not for show if you have the gift.

I would've preferred you were 0.5 on the snakes. Because anyone can mumble unintelligible nonsense. The snakes are actually a potent demonstration of faith a nonbeliever might find persuasive. And there's scriptural justification, too (despite the fact that Mark 16:18 is a later addition). Better yet: drink cyanide. Then I'd really have to question my atheism!

[Fuzzy Bear]

What I find interesting is that in a forum that's 40%+ LGBTQ+ (and has been for a decade of more) as well as overwhelming accepting of such traits, this forum could easily have set rules for itself, based on protecting it's membership, that excluded or outright banned conservative Christians completely for expressing contrary views.

It hasn't. If anything it's been tolerant of such views, even in appointing mods.

A strongly 'queer' space has been far more open and respectful of difference than most online or in person conservative Christian spaces.

If anything, it's been overly tolerant.  Many of the evangelical viewpoints and statements made on controversial topics here would get someone fired from a private sector job for promoting discriminatory views among other things.  Here they are pretty much allowed to say whatever they want under the guise of "free expression," liability be damned.   

That those views would "get someone fired from a private sector job" may be true, but that doesn't make it right. 

It is one thing to discriminate in employment or harangue people at work to the point where it impacts job performance and rises to the level of a hostile work environment.  That's not right; while people don't have the right to be affirmed by others in their own choices in the workplace, they DO have the right to be left alone and to not be subject to overt appeals (in the workplace) that they have clearly rejected.  It is another thing to hold beliefs and express them in the Public Square (and that includes "online") as to what God sanctions in terms of marriage, sexual activity, and even who is going to Heaven or Hell and why?  The First Amendment provides for free expression of religious beliefs.  Why it should be permissible to fire someone for religious beliefs and the expression of same in the public square is beyond me.  That you don't like my religious beliefs is fine and good.  I don't like your religious beliefs.  Truthfully, I don't like anything about you and I find you an HP, but the fact of the Whole World finding you an HP does not infringe on your Constitutional Rights one bit.  Constitutional Rights are for HPs, and especially for HPs.  When everyone thinks you're an FF you don't NEED the Constitution.  It's when everyone thinks you're an HP that you need it.

That's the thing that galls me:  When I was younger I found all sorts of folks to be Massive HPs, ranging from the Far Right whack jobs of all stripes to Leftist Anarchists who would destroy America for turds and giggles.  But I supported their right to express themselves, however awful that expression may be.  And I grew up in an era where the vast majority of Americans would consider it HP behavior to advocate for SSM and SSM couples adopting.  Everyone, I believed (and still believe) has the right to freely express themselves, so long as they are not explicitly encouraging harm to others.  Indeed, I believe that most of what people consider "Hate Speech" is protected under the First Amendment.  (I am a Free Speech advocate with some recognition of the idea that speech can become conduct, but a believer that this principle ought to be minimally used.)  A decent amount of what is posted about Evangelical Christians here is "Hate Speech", but the haters never own that. That doesn't mean that I advocate utilizing Hate Speech in people's rhetorical tool boxes, and it doesn't mean that this Forum should not have rules regarding this (rules that aren't always enforced equally, but that's another matter), but it does mean that people have the right to express ideas that are outside the Overton Window.  And I believe that people have these rights to the extent that they cannot be fired for them, any more than someone in a non-political or non-religious occupation can be fired for openly espousing ideas running counter to the organization that hired them when their JOB involves showing congruence between a belief system and the life of the person working there.

When I am Weaker than you, I ask you for Freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am Stronger than you, I take away your Freedom Because that is according to my principles.”

How many people on this Forum fit the description of the above Frank Herbert quote?  More people fit that quote than are willing to admit.

[afleitch]

How does any of that square with;

What if that highlighted part results in Religious Schools being mandated to hire openly gay teachers who reject Scriptural teachings on Marriage and Family?

You're not 'live and let live'. Except for your own views, because you believe your religious views require the greatest of protection. What's the point of the First Amendment if it gives religion carte blanche protection to do almost anything but doesn't afford this to other ideologies or inherent traits?