Woodrow Wilson killed by Spanish Flu
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October 16, 2021, 12:04:19 AM

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  Woodrow Wilson killed by Spanish Flu
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Samof94
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« on: September 18, 2021, 11:29:22 AM »

What would have happened if that disease had killed him?
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gerritcole
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2021, 12:28:54 PM »

thomas marshall becomes president
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Samof94
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2021, 11:35:14 AM »

How does that change Versailles?
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Butlerian Jihad
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2021, 12:34:57 AM »


My understanding of Marshall is that he more or less shared Wilson's policy alignment but was, put simply, a lightweight who probably would have gotten less at Versailles and under whom the League of Nations might have bombed even harder in the isolationist-controlled Senate. IOTL his dithering when it came to jockeying for power with Wilson's wife after the President's stroke likely contributed to the treaty's failure in the Senate and the Republicans storming home in 1920.
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Samof94
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2021, 06:53:15 AM »


My understanding of Marshall is that he more or less shared Wilson's policy alignment but was, put simply, a lightweight who probably would have gotten less at Versailles and under whom the League of Nations might have bombed even harder in the isolationist-controlled Senate. IOTL his dithering when it came to jockeying for power with Wilson's wife after the President's stroke likely contributed to the treaty's failure in the Senate and the Republicans storming home in 1920.
So worse than OTL?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 06:45:32 PM »

Assuming Wilson contracts the flu that kills him at the same point he probably contracted it real life*, then I can't see President Marshall heading to Versailles to replace Wilson at the head of the American delegation. So Secretary of State Lansing would be leading the American delegation there. Lansing was skeptical about the League of Nations, so it's possible that it wouldn't be included in the treaty and even if it were, it would be a weaker organization. In either case, it becomes more likely the eventual treaty is ratified by the United States Senate.

One side effect in either case is that the hypocrisy of the mandate system would be avoided and the former German and Ottoman territory that became mandates would instead be Allied colonies de jure instead of just de facto. It's hard to see how the terms could have been made much harsher against the Central Powers. Indeed, with Wilson gone and thus little hope of his moderating the terms, the Germans might have responded favorably to the officially unofficial approach made by René Massigli about France supporting milder terms in exchange for a Franco-German collaboration against the Anglo-Saxon powers. (Not likely, but not impossible.)

* Wilson was ill during Versailles and while it is generally believed it was due to the Spanish flu, it is not known for sure as like with his later stroke, Wilson kept information on his health private.
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Samof94
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 06:53:43 AM »

Assuming Wilson contracts the flu that kills him at the same point he probably contracted it real life*, then I can't see President Marshall heading to Versailles to replace Wilson at the head of the American delegation. So Secretary of State Lansing would be leading the American delegation there. Lansing was skeptical about the League of Nations, so it's possible that it wouldn't be included in the treaty and even if it were, it would be a weaker organization. In either case, it becomes more likely the eventual treaty is ratified by the United States Senate.

One side effect in either case is that the hypocrisy of the mandate system would be avoided and the former German and Ottoman territory that became mandates would instead be Allied colonies de jure instead of just de facto. It's hard to see how the terms could have been made much harsher against the Central Powers. Indeed, with Wilson gone and thus little hope of his moderating the terms, the Germans might have responded favorably to the officially unofficial approach made by René Massigli about France supporting milder terms in exchange for a Franco-German collaboration against the Anglo-Saxon powers. (Not likely, but not impossible.)

* Wilson was ill during Versailles and while it is generally believed it was due to the Spanish flu, it is not known for sure as like with his later stroke, Wilson kept information on his health private.
How would ratification change us foreign policy?
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 06:01:41 PM »


Assuming Wilson contracts the flu that kills him at the same point he probably contracted it real life*, then I can't see President Marshall heading to Versailles to replace Wilson at the head of the American delegation. So Secretary of State Lansing would be leading the American delegation there. Lansing was skeptical about the League of Nations, so it's possible that it wouldn't be included in the treaty and even if it were, it would be a weaker organization. In either case, it becomes more likely the eventual treaty is ratified by the United States Senate.

One side effect in either case is that the hypocrisy of the mandate system would be avoided and the former German and Ottoman territory that became mandates would instead be Allied colonies de jure instead of just de facto. It's hard to see how the terms could have been made much harsher against the Central Powers. Indeed, with Wilson gone and thus little hope of his moderating the terms, the Germans might have responded favorably to the officially unofficial approach made by René Massigli about France supporting milder terms in exchange for a Franco-German collaboration against the Anglo-Saxon powers. (Not likely, but not impossible.)

* Wilson was ill during Versailles and while it is generally believed it was due to the Spanish flu, it is not known for sure as like with his later stroke, Wilson kept information on his health private.

How would ratification change us foreign policy?

Not who you were responding to, but I'd have to think that there would've presumably been no significant changes. Ratifying Versailles - let alone a weaker Versailles - wouldn't have made the average American internationalist enough to support the participation of American troops abroad in order to prevent, say, Hitler's conquests of his territorial ambitions.
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Samof94
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2021, 05:53:56 AM »


Assuming Wilson contracts the flu that kills him at the same point he probably contracted it real life*, then I can't see President Marshall heading to Versailles to replace Wilson at the head of the American delegation. So Secretary of State Lansing would be leading the American delegation there. Lansing was skeptical about the League of Nations, so it's possible that it wouldn't be included in the treaty and even if it were, it would be a weaker organization. In either case, it becomes more likely the eventual treaty is ratified by the United States Senate.

One side effect in either case is that the hypocrisy of the mandate system would be avoided and the former German and Ottoman territory that became mandates would instead be Allied colonies de jure instead of just de facto. It's hard to see how the terms could have been made much harsher against the Central Powers. Indeed, with Wilson gone and thus little hope of his moderating the terms, the Germans might have responded favorably to the officially unofficial approach made by René Massigli about France supporting milder terms in exchange for a Franco-German collaboration against the Anglo-Saxon powers. (Not likely, but not impossible.)

* Wilson was ill during Versailles and while it is generally believed it was due to the Spanish flu, it is not known for sure as like with his later stroke, Wilson kept information on his health private.

How would ratification change us foreign policy?

Not who you were responding to, but I'd have to think that there would've presumably been no significant changes. Ratifying Versailles - let alone a weaker Versailles - wouldn't have made the average American internationalist enough to support the participation of American troops abroad in order to prevent, say, Hitler's conquests of his territorial ambitions.
The us is now in the League of Nations.
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2021, 09:10:51 AM »


Assuming Wilson contracts the flu that kills him at the same point he probably contracted it real life*, then I can't see President Marshall heading to Versailles to replace Wilson at the head of the American delegation. So Secretary of State Lansing would be leading the American delegation there. Lansing was skeptical about the League of Nations, so it's possible that it wouldn't be included in the treaty and even if it were, it would be a weaker organization. In either case, it becomes more likely the eventual treaty is ratified by the United States Senate.

One side effect in either case is that the hypocrisy of the mandate system would be avoided and the former German and Ottoman territory that became mandates would instead be Allied colonies de jure instead of just de facto. It's hard to see how the terms could have been made much harsher against the Central Powers. Indeed, with Wilson gone and thus little hope of his moderating the terms, the Germans might have responded favorably to the officially unofficial approach made by René Massigli about France supporting milder terms in exchange for a Franco-German collaboration against the Anglo-Saxon powers. (Not likely, but not impossible.)

* Wilson was ill during Versailles and while it is generally believed it was due to the Spanish flu, it is not known for sure as like with his later stroke, Wilson kept information on his health private.

How would ratification change us foreign policy?

Not who you were responding to, but I'd have to think that there would've presumably been no significant changes. Ratifying Versailles - let alone a weaker Versailles - wouldn't have made the average American internationalist enough to support the participation of American troops abroad in order to prevent, say, Hitler's conquests of his territorial ambitions.

The us is now in the League of Nations.

And that doesn't change a single thing about what I said that you're replying to there.
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