USA to sell Nuclear Subs to Australia
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  USA to sell Nuclear Subs to Australia
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Lord Halifax
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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2021, 08:45:45 AM »

What an outstanding strategic move by Biden. As is evident from the histrionic reactions both on the forum and off it by the usual suspects. Grin

Who are u referring to?
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WMS
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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2021, 09:03:10 AM »

What an outstanding strategic move by Biden. As is evident from the histrionic reactions both on the forum and off it by the usual suspects. Grin

Who are u referring to?

Check my signature. Wink
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Lord Halifax
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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2021, 09:06:08 AM »

What an outstanding strategic move by Biden. As is evident from the histrionic reactions both on the forum and off it by the usual suspects. Grin

Who are u referring to?

Check my signature. Wink

Nah, I don't have signatures turned on and that's not something I'm going to change.
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WMS
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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2021, 09:08:30 AM »

What an outstanding strategic move by Biden. As is evident from the histrionic reactions both on the forum and off it by the usual suspects. Grin

Who are u referring to?

Check my signature. Wink

Nah, I don't have signatures turned on and that's not something I'm going to change.

Understood. Not you, by the way. A certain troll who has posted a lot in this thread. Cheesy
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2021, 11:44:14 AM »

Suck my Freedom Fries, France
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2021, 04:48:10 PM »

Looks like the Australians dropped the ball with the French, since the Australians said they would be the ones communicating with the French over the contract change.

New York times story:


Quote

Secret Talks and a Hidden Agenda: Behind the U.S. Defense Deal That France Called a ‘Betrayal’

In meeting after meeting with their French counterparts, U.S. officials gave no heads-up about their plans to upend France’s largest defense contract.

The United States and Australia went to extraordinary lengths to keep Paris in the dark as they secretly negotiated a plan to build nuclear submarines, scuttling France’s largest defense contract and so enraging President Emmanuel Macron that on Friday he ordered the withdrawal of France’s ambassadors to both nations.

Mr. Macron’s decision was a stunning and unexpected escalation of the breach between Washington and Paris, on a day that the two countries had planned to celebrate an alliance that goes back to the defeat of Britain in the Revolutionary War.

Yet it was driven by France’s realization that two of its closest allies have been negotiating secretly for months. According to interviews with American and British officials, the Australians approached the new administration soon after President Biden’s inauguration and said they had concluded that they had to get out of a $60 billion agreement with France to supply them with a dozen attack submarines.

The conventionally powered French subs, the Australians feared, would be obsolete by the time they were delivered. They expressed interest in seeking a fleet of quieter nuclear-powered submarines based on American and British designs that could patrol areas of the South China Sea with less risk of detection.

....

“They told us they would take care of dealing with the French,” one senior U.S. official said.

...

The Australians, by all accounts, never made clear to the French that they were preparing to cancel the deal, which had taken years to negotiate.







https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/17/us/politics/us-france-australia-betrayal.html
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Vaccinated Russian Bear
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2021, 05:34:57 PM »

Looks like, because "one senior U.S. official" said so?


Even if this is true, the Americans are nor dumb, nor naïve in the matter of geopolitics, while the Aussies certainly are. Also, according to the French they didn't get a frank answer [from Blinken] just week before the announcement.

Quote
So they decided to keep the work to a very small group of officials, and made no mention of it to the French, even when Mr. Biden and Mr. Blinken met their French counterparts in June.

Mr. Biden made no mention of the plans during a chummy chat with Mr. Macron at a summit meeting in June in Cornwall, where they sat in lawn chairs by the sea and talked about the future of the Atlantic alliance. (Mr. Biden, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Morrison met together the same day, discussed the emerging deal, and in a vague statement which seems more revealing today than it did then, referred to “deepening strategic cooperation between the three governments” to meet a changing defense environment in the Indo-Pacific.) Three days later, Mr. Morrison met separately with Mr. Macron, but left no impression he was rethinking the deal, the French insist.

According to French officials, Mr. Blinken also stayed silent on June 25 when his French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, welcomed him back to Paris — where Mr. Blinken spent his high school years — and extolled the importance of the French submarine deal.

And as recently as Aug. 30, when the French and Australian defense and foreign ministers held their annual “consultation,” they issued a joint communiqué that said the two countries were committed to deepening cooperation in the defense industry and “underlined the importance of the Future Submarine program.”

By that time, the Australians not only knew the program was dead, they had nearly sealed the agreement in principle with Washington and London.

The French ambassador to the United States, Philippe Étienne, said in several interviews that he first heard of the deal in leaked news reports appearing in the Australian media and in Politico. Other French officials said they had been suspicious that something was up a week ago, but did not get an immediate response from Mr. Blinken or Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III. The first American official to discuss the details with Ambassador Étienne was Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, a few hours before the public announcement on Wednesday.

American officials insist it was not their place to talk to the French about their business deal with Australia. But now, in light of the blowup, some officials say they regret they did not insist that the Australians level with the French about their intentions earlier.


Hahaha, so humiliating and nonchalant towards the French. Haven't France learned their lesson yet?
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GoTfan
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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2021, 02:47:46 AM »

Don't kid yourselves guys, this is only happening because ScoMo can't win the next election on anything but "CHINA! CHINA! CHINA!!!!!!!!"
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2021, 03:33:18 AM »

Yeah, it seems like the New World Order is beginning to consolidate itself. With this giant humiliation of France in front of all the world stage to see, we can see that the trend is EU being more independent coallition while US will form an anti-China alliance with the Anglo countries.

Who would really win in a US - UK - Australia - Canada vs Germany - France - Russia - China?
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Farmlands
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2021, 04:24:39 AM »

Yeah, it seems like the New World Order is beginning to consolidate itself. With this giant humiliation of France in front of all the world stage to see, we can see that the trend is EU being more independent coallition while US will form an anti-China alliance with the Anglo countries.

Who would really win in a US - UK - Australia - Canada vs Germany - France - Russia - China?

Lmao. The European union is never siding with China, and especially not Russia, in any conflict against some of our oldest and closest allies, one hundred percent.
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Red Velvet
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2021, 08:10:40 AM »

Yeah, it seems like the New World Order is beginning to consolidate itself. With this giant humiliation of France in front of all the world stage to see, we can see that the trend is EU being more independent coallition while US will form an anti-China alliance with the Anglo countries.

Who would really win in a US - UK - Australia - Canada vs Germany - France - Russia - China?

Lmao. The European union is never siding with China, and especially not Russia, in any conflict against some of our oldest and closest allies, one hundred percent.

It’s fun to be hypothetical though. IF it happened, would be tough showdown. I am not sure who would prevail.
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Agonized-Statism
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2021, 10:45:57 AM »

Yeah, it seems like the New World Order is beginning to consolidate itself. With this giant humiliation of France in front of all the world stage to see, we can see that the trend is EU being more independent coallition while US will form an anti-China alliance with the Anglo countries.

Who would really win in a US - UK - Australia - Canada vs Germany - France - Russia - China?

The fly in the ointment for an independent Europe right now is Russia, unless they patch things up with either the US or Europe or collapse. Could see Russia seeking rapprochement with the US in this scenario if it comes under new leadership that looks to collaborate on interests in the Middle East and against China.

In an actual world war scenario, the Asian theater is the one that would be big, long, and brutal.
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Conservatopia
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2021, 12:01:54 PM »

It's hilarious that France didn't withdraw their British ambassador because they had apparently priced in Britain's "permanent opportunism" and "duplicitous nature" and were therefore not bothered.

Perfidious Albion amirite?
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rc18
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2021, 01:03:37 PM »
« Edited: September 19, 2021, 01:40:33 PM by rc18 »

They can't get in a strop with us, as the only other country in Europe with power projection capabilities they need us. They'd not only have their Indo-Pacific ambitions torpedoed, but also their European and North African ones.

Of course acknowledging that fact would seriously damage French pride, so they'd rather indulge in a bit of banter to distract from it.
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Lord Halifax
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2021, 02:05:47 PM »

They can't get in a strop with us, as the only other country in Europe with power projection capabilities

Well, almost 40% of Europe is in Russia so..
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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2021, 03:20:39 AM »

Tbh, I had so far perceived this as mostly a US/UK vs. France conflict and my reaction to it boiled down to "meh, that's their business". Tongue
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dead0man
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« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2021, 12:22:02 AM »

where are our French/Francophile posters?
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Meclazine for Israel
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2021, 12:44:23 AM »

where are our French/Francophile posters?

Are you referring to 10 May 1940?
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dead0man
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2021, 12:46:10 AM »

where are our French/Francophile posters?

Are you referring to 10 May 1940?
no, just wanting to get an opinion on the current issue from someone who likes France
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dead0man
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2021, 01:40:05 AM »

k...but this is a thread about the Australian subs.  I was looking for the opinion on the issue from someone who is pro French.  I have no idea why you two think France in 1940 has any bearing on this.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2021, 04:00:58 AM »
« Edited: September 21, 2021, 05:09:29 AM by Zinneke »

I can't be pro-French in this, I still see some credit to the Atlantic relationship but I do understand why this would be the straw that breaks the camel's back. The reality is the French compete with the US military-industrial complex for arms procurement in their own back yard (the EU) and often the US arm twists other member-states into submission rather than playing fair*. The perception by the French too is that the whole US NATO strategy now just consists of forcing member-states to up their budgets so that they can buy American, NOT so that they buy what NATO really needs*.

This deal effectively strong arms the French out of another arms deal. There was no fair process or auction, it was litterally one contract signed, US comes in, forces the Aussies to break the agreement, sells their own stuff,and the UK adds to the humiliation by providing the nuclear submarine tech. Whilst the UK is the immediate beneficiary really what this does is ensure Australia and the UK "buy American", even if the French product is cheaper and more effective.


I would also add, humiliating the French and French-bashing constantly has been a theme in Anglo-Saxon circles for a while now. I would say careful what you wish for. Whilst Panzerdaddy was shaking hands with Reagan, Panzergirl is firmly in the pro-Putin camp. Ritually humiliating the French is not going to help pro-US Presidents get in. And in general, I don't see the point of  French-bashing just because they are in the midst of a deep cultural and social decline (yet still a much more progressive society in parts than the US, despite the hand-wringing from some Atlas Democrats on here who think that because of its laicité tradition France is a fascist state...rest assured, the real reactionaries are those who agree to allow parents to abuse their children).




 The US also no longer has a prominent/natural ally with a big voice in the EU council. It basically has Denmark and maybe the Netherlands,who of course spy on behalf of them, but when push comes to shove may find it hard to counter a Franco-German initiative to no longer buy American, cut a deal with Putin for security and leave Biden without real presence in Europe. Why did Biden also not factor in that there is a very big debate about how to deal with China within the EU, and that right now the pro-Chinese integration and cooperation camp, led by Germany, is winning, whilst France was still sitting on the fence, with Macron calling out China for human rights abuses? Biden could have got Macron to commit to hindering pro-China trade and economic agreements, as well as joining this Pacific alliance as a deterent to the Chinese.  



Overall, I can comprehend the French perspective as the right one. They are supposed to be allies with all these countries and yet these countries treat them like a bit-part player. Eventually there will be no incentive for the French to play ball. They won't withdraw from NATO but they certainly will start to consistently undermine US interests within it if they continue to see the US as an adversary. What Biden has done is risky diplomacy in the long run. Mainly because it doesn't just piss off the incumbent President, but the entire Ministry where an institutional struggle between pro-US and pro-Russia/Third Way camp has been there for decades. That kind of damage is very hard to repair with just conferences.



* I am not suggesting that the French arms industry are any better with Françafrique, etc. But they do agree to things like standardisation and have taken a leading role in setting up a DG at EU level for ensuring the procurement is efficient and that the arms industry is remotely competitive rather than an insanely corrupt scam done behind closed doors.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2021, 05:00:32 AM »

Yeah, I mean, I have been probably more critical of French internal politics than anyone else on this forum, and would normally go "not my problem, neutralité oblige". I still think it is rather interesting that this forum's reaction has been to dig in to its rather predictable anti-European resentment and francophobia and to uncritically parrot the idea that it is totally unacceptable for anyone to resist submitting to the US as if every country has a moral obligation to align its interests to those of the USA.

For many reasons, European and American geopolitical interests don't actually align perfectly - and one of those is that stuff like this; the four years of Trumpism; the Afghanstan debacle; the fact that one of the major American parties seems to have abandoned its commitment to democracy (and vice versa in certain EU member states); and in particular the increasing rejection of multilateralism on both sides of the American political spectrum mean that it is no longer seen as a trustworthy ally. If the US consistently goes around undermining the multilateral organisations, multipolarity, ignores the perspectives of EU members, and delves further into basing its world outlook on a resentful nationalism - then it isn't really surprising that, especially a figure like Macron, whose own outlook is similar except, well, French, will react.

By which I mean, I'm not actually sure whether this was intentional on Biden's part, of if he really just is pretty bad at foreign policy. Misjudging the Afghanistan withdrawal and now this would potentially seem indicate that you shouldn't assume bad intentions when it could more justifiably just be explained as incompetence.

Question is, does the EU actually have the balls to organise itself an come up with a coherent foreign and defence policy? Everything we've ever seen up to now would suggest no, which long term probably just means further decline of Europe's influence. And in any case the hysterical predictions of some new world order aren't likely - the EU and US might develop into reluctant and mistrustful allies à la France and Britain in the first half of the 20th century; but they are fundamentally too economically dependent on each other, and are still aligned on the fundamental basic values like democracy to ever be active antagonists.
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CumbrianLefty
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« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2021, 07:24:52 AM »

Relations between the US and much of Europe were still much worse in the Dubya era surely.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2021, 07:27:55 AM »

Relations between the US and much of Europe were still much worse in the Dubya era surely.

They were, but Europe felt more respected.

I'd also add that the American FP establishment was right on Afghanistan, and that the fuss the Europeans kicked up was just poor intelligence and strategy. We can't blame the US for holding up an agreement to withdraw, even if it was done by the previous incompetent administration. But on other issues such as the travel ban, AUZUK, and their big tech companies, the EU has a right to ask what is going on.
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rc18
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2021, 08:09:55 AM »
« Edited: September 21, 2021, 08:13:19 AM by rc18 »

I must say, the "You shouldn't snub the French or they'll ally with the Russians" line is not exactly the killer argument in favour of closer cooperation some appear to think it is...
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