VA: Gen. Robert E. Lee Statue in Richmond Has Been Taken Down (user search)
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  VA: Gen. Robert E. Lee Statue in Richmond Has Been Taken Down (search mode)
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Author Topic: VA: Gen. Robert E. Lee Statue in Richmond Has Been Taken Down  (Read 1836 times)
Dan the Roman
liberalrepublican
Sr. Member
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Posts: 2,554
United States


« on: September 08, 2021, 06:04:20 PM »

In the winter of '65
We were hungry, just barely alive
By May the 10th, Richmond had fell
It's a time I remember, oh so well

The night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

Back with my wife in Tennessee
When one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see,
There goes Robert E. Lee!"


Now ah don't mind choppin' wood
And ah don't care if the money's no good!
Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest
But they should NEVER have taken the VERY BEEEEEESSSSSSST!


This was my grandfather's (yes, the same one who stormed Normandy on D-Day) favorite song by the way. HIS grandfather fought for the Confederacy as a rural Appalachian North Carolina man who probably never saw a black person in person his entire life, let alone owned a slave or approved of such a thing.

Turns out people and massive wars are complicated and not as black and white as commonly portrayed! Who would have thought???

And before anyone takes this as a defense of slavery or the Confederacy, no it absolutely is not. The plantation system of chattel slavery was abhorrent, reprehensible, one of the greatest moral evils of all-time. It and the rebellion ABSOLUTELY deserved to be put down.

HOWEVER... My point, and the point of the song, is that the people who suffered and died in the name of the Confederacy were in 99%+ cases NOT slave owners. These people were barely literate if at all. Many didn't own f--king shoes. They literally had no access to any information about the outside world besides what they were spoonfed by their state governments (ESPECIALLY in particularly isolated places like Western North Carolina). And they certainly didn't own slaves, and couldn't afford to even if they wanted to. THEY were nonetheless the ones used as cannon fodder in the Confederacy's "lost cause." Blame the plantation class, not my ancestors. And while it is true Robert E. Lee was part of that plantation class, and in most cases I agree his likeness has no business on the streets of modern America... To deny just how powerful an influence the image (if not the reality) of this man was on generations of Southerners is just to deny reality and history. And if it's going to be preserved anywhere, it absolutely should be Richmond, Virginia.

The 99%+ number you postulate is entirely fictitious. It’s very much not the case.  In fact it’s thought that over a third of the Army of Northern Virginia owned slaves themselves or were part of families that did. It wasn't just the absurdly rich who owned slaves, and it certainly wasn't just them who reaped its benefits and profited from it. This post is malarkey folks.

As for ordinary Southern folk not approving of slavery? Well...I've got bad news to break to you...

Slavery functioned by the mid to late 1850s the way anti-mask stuff or CRT now does. It was an emotional us v. them issue.

In fact, the more slaves someone owned in the South, the more Unionist/moderate on the slavery issue they tended to be. Why? They had skin in the game and therefore had to look at this whole thing not as a game, but as a real one where they would lose.

The largest slaveholder in MS was future Republican governor James Alcorn. The large slaveholders overwelmingly backed John Bell in 1860, and Unionist/American Party candidates in the late 1850s.

After them came the well off merchants.

Basically it was

Big Slaveholders = Whig/American/Unionist
Professional Classes = Douglas Ds, see Mobile or other places where Douglas maintained some Southern support.

Old Jacksonian populist poor white base = Breckinridge, base of the fire eaters.


It was the poorer, slave-less whites who had nothing else but their identity and culture who forced a war over slavery, and thereby caused slaveholders to lose everything
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Dan the Roman
liberalrepublican
Sr. Member
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Posts: 2,554
United States


« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2021, 08:59:20 PM »
« Edited: September 08, 2021, 09:09:31 PM by Dan the Roman »

I'm sure you can find prominent slaveholders who remained loyal to the Union during the war, particularly of course in Kentucky, where the planter class strategically aligned themselves with the Lincoln administration in hopes that if the war did bring about the end of slavery, it wouldn't effect them. HOWEVER, these individuals do not present the "typical Southern unionist." If we look to the places in the slave states where unionism was strongest, we see a strong inverse correlation at the county level between the % of the population who were slaves (i.e. the prevalence of slavery in that county) and unionist sentiment. Viz.,




From these maps, we see the large majority of unionist delegates to state conventions in the winter and spring of 1861 came from counties where slaves accounted for a negligible minority of the population, and therefore where the white male electorate was far less likely to include major slaveowners. The areas where slavery was strongest, with some exceptions, sent delegates who supported the secession ordinances and many of whom in fact had been angling for this outcome for over a decade. So no, secession was emphatically not the pet project of dirt farmers in western North Carolina and eastern Tennessee: it was emphatically supported by the majority of the planter class, and its opponents were mostly very poor whites in the mold of Andrew Johnson who hated blacks, but hated the planters more.

A distinction needs to be drawn between those who in the 1850s opposed policies which inevitably would result in secession, and how they behaved after.

Fire Eater politics prior to November 1860 were flakish. They could lead to nothing could and much of the genuine elite opposed them.

Once South Carolina left the die was cast. Anyone still backing the Union after Fort Sumter was in effect weakening the leverage of the South either to succeed in secession or to force a settlement. It is ahistoric to treat those who backed the Confederacy once it was an established fact with their behavior before, especially because Johnson was far more radical in the 1850s than Bell. For instance on Kansas-Nebraska where Bell opposed it and Johnson supported it. Arguably the Johnson/Bell dynamic is exactly what I meant. Bell represented a fundamentally conservative constituency which opposed the Kansas-Nebraska act and favored accepting limitations on slavery in order to avoid conflict when populists like Johnson wished to fight abstract principled battles. In 1861, Bell again bowed to "reality" namely that with the Deep South gone the only options were for the Deep South to be crushed which would destroy the position of the Upper South, or for it to succeed. There was no longer much chance to avoid war, and what chance existed lay in the South sticking together.

In effect

1850s - Large slaveowners tended to be far less engaged in the fights over abstract "Southern Rights" because they stood to gain nothing economically in Kansas and to lose enormously if the conflict led to the triumph of "demagogues" in the North(and South). Hence they saw efforts to expand slavery as threats to their own position and the security of their own property.

1858-60 - They opposed the takeover of the Southern Democratic party by ideologies, almost none of whom owned extensive numbers of slaves, who wanted a breakup and floated fantasies such as reopening the slave trade or suggesting Dred Scott required slavery to be expanded nationally. They made up the base of residual Douglas support in the South and Bell support.

1861 - Your map is right but studies show that there is not a very good correlation between 1860 Presidential support and 1861 secession voting in the Deep South after the first few states. Whigs like Alexander Stephens led the fight against secession in Georgia, but once it was clear several states were going out, the former Whigs generally fell into line. The downscale Democrats did not, which is why they made up almost all 1861 Unionists.

But 1861 Unionism, and post 1861 Unionism is a very different phenomenon. At that point it is purely ideological. There is nothing anyone with property can hope to preserve or accomplish through Unionism. The only options that can save them are a Southern Victory or a compromise. Unconditional Unionism makes both less likely. A Northern political or military victory at that point is the end.

In effect large property owners behaved how one would expect them to behave. They sought to avoid abstract political clashes where they stood to gain nothing, and potentially lose much. When a binary situation developed they again eschewed seeking mythical third options and chose to make the best of a bad situation. Even if they believed the South could not win a war, that was immaterial. The war was happening and if the South lost they lost. They needed a Confederate victory, regardless of their reservations.

Furthermore, even if they did not desire a Confederate victory, and instead hoped for a compromise peace, and that probably was the preference as it would undermine their political opponents in both north and south, then being very loud about it was unwise.

 Much as the final Iraq War vote might not be representative of actual reservations and sentiments among the American political elite in 2002, the later secession conventions after the secession of South Carolina, and especially after the direction of travel in other parts of the Deep South was clear, greatly understate pre-November 1860 doubts. Except, of course, in areas where Unionist sentiment was so overwelmingly strong that it was not just safe, but advantageous to express those views.

But 45% Unionist sentiment tended to collapse to sub 10% very rapidly elsewhere as tends to happen in similar situations.
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