Former Democratic Senate nominee claims "Ketchup packets are not available in rural areas."

[Mechavada]

Thread Summary:

Failed Senate candidate makes tone deaf statement.  However, food scarcity is a real issue for a lot of folks.  But enough about that, let's talk about abortion for some reason!

[John Dule]

We've been over this before, and I explained to you quite clearly that development is not the only reason why a fetus doesn't qualify as human. You can stop kicking the strawman now.

I apologize, but post liberal communitarians and eccentric classical liberals are almost certainly incapable of even sharing a moral language, in no small part due to the latter’s rejection of The Good.

2. Classical liberalism may be a philosophy, but it can hardly be called a moral one.

Wow, and here I was thinking that Christian philosophy was just an intellectual dead-end that encourages its adherents to engage in moral posturing and avoid the uncomfortable feeling of self-doubt. Good on you for proving me wrong.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

FWIW my experience with West Virginia comes from driving through it to get from DC to St. Louis.  It was hilly and rural, but doesn't compare to the Appalachians, which I had to drive through to get to West Virginia.  Apparently there are some parts of the mountain range that do go into West Virginia so I was wrong about that.

The entire state is in the Appalachians. Even the bits that don't seem particularly mountainous are in the foothills. Old mountains - and these are extremely old mountains - are less dramatic than young ones. It also happens that there were historically - i.e. rather less so now, so drastic has depopulation been since the collapse of the mining industry - significant population clusters in some very rugged patches as well, notably the Cumberland Plateau. 'Lived Experience' does not actually negate basic geographical facts!

[Adam Griffin]

When in actuality, upper-class Southern suburban whites are more likely to be going to those tacky megachurches than poor hillbillies. And West Virginia still voted Democratic pretty reliably up until 2000, and the 2010s downballot - long after the Moral Majority had started.

[Diabolical Materialism]

HOLY CRAP A POLITICIAN SAID SOMETHING DUMB/OUT OF TOUCH!!!! We're gonna need at least four pages of GMac effortposts and Kingpoleon non sequiturs to really get this issued settled.

[Adam Griffin]

The argument was made that most persons in West Virginia lived within 20 minutes of a McDonalds.

Your contrary illustration was that it was hard to travel between two remote hollows, neither of which are large enough to have any restaurants or stores of any kind - unless someone has a small store in a converted porch. They may sell crackers, but any ketchup will be in larger containers or cans.

But these two random hollows share a common location that does have a McDonald's.

And if you are in Barrett, WV it is even closer to Van, WV where the schools are, and which has a dollar store, which surely has crackers and catsup. And the High School serves breakfast. For that matter, a school is a surer sign of civilization than McDonald's isn't it?

Nobody lives in eastern West Virginia. I don't know whether the Greenbriar has ketchup. You may have to make do with cocktail sauce.

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there and that the state isn't difficult to navigate compared to most others). The reality is that there are many hollers and towns with only a handful of people in them, but they are everywhere and traversing even a short geographical distance in most directions takes twice as long as it would even in other Appalachian regions. All of that adds up. It's not inherently about whether ketchup packets are present or whether one particular fast-food chain exists, but the cumulative effect of all of it on retail, commercial, residential and even familial dynamics.

And 40% of West Virginians live in the eastern portions (excluding the Panhandle, where another 10% live), which was roughly the only area GMA was implying was Appalachian by any stretch.

[Benjamin Frank]

It is interesting that you focus on the Democrats to be the responsible party (and I don't necessarily agree that the issues behind 'wokeness' aren't serious) rather than telling the Republicans to be responsible and stop focusing on voter suppression and endless virtue signaling on abortion.  After all, in West Virginia anyway these are mostly all Republican voters.

The liberal nonsense about virtue signaling on abortion indicates a fundamental inability to grasp why so many rural and poor people oppose abortion. It is not because they are idiots, but because they see through the veneer of a certain cosmopolitan bipartisan neoliberalism which refuses to understand that judging humans on the basis of development is evil social Darwinism.

The sole point of my post, which I thought was obvious, and isn't even original fwiw, is the asymmetrical expectations/demands that people have of Republicans vs. Democrats. 

Republicans are considered to be fine merely for not endorsing an attempted insurrection on a given day while Democrats are considered to be no better than Republicans if a single Democratic member of Congress plays politics on a given issue. 

In regards to the comment I was initially responding to, if you want to build coalitions and want to do so with the Democrats, it's generally not a good idea to say "let's focus on my concerns because your concerns are stupid." 

In regards to abortion, I could address that as well, but I'd rather leave it out for now anyway.

[GeneralMacArthur]

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there

Jesus Christ this website f---ing sucks.  Please, by all means, quote the post where I said there are no poor people in West Virginia, or else apologize for lying.

HOLY CRAP A POLITICIAN SAID SOMETHING DUMB/OUT OF TOUCH!!!! We're gonna need at least four pages of GMac effortposts and Kingpoleon non sequiturs to really get this issued settled.

I've only made 4 posts in this entire thread.  That's 4 out of 58.  It feels like I'm filling up the entire thread because everyone else keeps quoting my posts.

[Benjamin Frank]

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there

Jesus Christ this website f---ing sucks.  Please, by all means, quote the post where I said there are no poor people in West Virginia, or else apologize for lying.

HOLY CRAP A POLITICIAN SAID SOMETHING DUMB/OUT OF TOUCH!!!! We're gonna need at least four pages of GMac effortposts and Kingpoleon non sequiturs to really get this issued settled.

I've only made 4 posts in this entire thread.  That's 4 out of 58.  It feels like I'm filling up the entire thread because everyone else keeps quoting my posts.

I think it's a bit rich for you to complain about being misinterpreted when you either intentionally misinterpreted Swearingin's reply to a tweet or commented out of ignorance in order to make a stupidly cynical, snarky comment.

[Adam Griffin]

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there

Jesus Christ this website f---ing sucks.  Please, by all means, quote the post where I said there are no poor people in West Virginia, or else apologize for lying.

No (non-coastal rich elite; doesn't apologize)

[Kingpoleon]

HOLY CRAP A POLITICIAN SAID SOMETHING DUMB/OUT OF TOUCH!!!! We're gonna need at least four pages of GMac effortposts and Kingpoleon non sequiturs to really get this issued settled.

Premises need not reach one’s conclusions; indeed, almost everybody uses prior conclusions to reach their premises.

[DINGO Joe]

So, anyway, at least tangentially, some of the issues WV has to deal with have been noted.

--There's not much left in rural WV and to get from point A (home to point B (Ketchup packets) is hard.

The State of WV actually tries to maintain the largest road system per capita of any state (counties don't do roads and municipalities maintain about 10% of the roads

https://www.wvnews.com/statejournal/opinion/orphan-roads-a-problem-in-search-of-a-solution/article_8f2987a4-0439-5337-bf89-e3dd5ddfb3c9.html

The roads are a huge challenge to maintain, because, yes, WV is mountainous with extremely sharp narrow valleys (hollows) Additionally, these roads frequently have to handle coal, natural gas and logging trucks which puts a hefty demand on puny roads.

--People like being near Ketchup packets.

What little pockets of growth exist in WV are the Eastern Panhandle and I-81 and in and near Morgantown along an Interstate that runs from Baltimore to Pittsburgh.  Even in places where the population declines everywhere the remaining people increasingly cling to the Interstate corridor.

The big event in McDowell Co in the last year was the completion of a building renovation (in conjunction with a teacher's union) in Welch to provide apartments with WiFi and a coffee shop (presumably with at least jelly packets) for....teachers who predominantly don't live in McDowell, but instead commute from the counties along the Interstate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/business/economy/west-virginia-county-teachers.html (paywall of course)

The workforce participation rate for McDowell is 26% so obviously many of the miners, prison guards, teachers, etc... commute in even along the winding crappy roads because they want the far greater retail and food option there that go well beyond Ketchup.

It should be noted though, that each year McDowell needs fewer and fewer teachers as the school population has dropped from 4000 in 2004 to 2500 last year.  In fact, you could move all the remaining kids over to the Interstate counties and those counties would still be below their 2005 enrollments.

At least schools do get consolidated to adjust for declining enrollments (roads don't get consolidated)

--Can't they make their own Ketchup?

Well, there is very little farming in WV to begin with and judging from what I've read about efforts to get WV to eat better (tops in obesity and many negative health measures) is no.  Full scale groceries in rural WV with fresh produce are rare and for many the nearest food emporium is the Dollar general.  They have been non-profit efforts to get produce to the kids and adults and even to teach them how to grow, but the number of WV who grow their own tomatoes seem quite low.

In sum, the ability to get more Ketchup packets into rural WV seems like a tough lift, doing something dramatic like moving them all to where the Ketchup packets are, seems unlikely even if they'd be willing to move, so the likely outcome is status quo where the people continue to fade away and the state tries to prop up costly infrastructure for these roads without Ketchup.



Of course, there are the drugs, poor educational levels and horrible population pyramid but those are more a tale of Mustard.

[jimrtex]

The argument was made that most persons in West Virginia lived within 20 minutes of a McDonalds.

Your contrary illustration was that it was hard to travel between two remote hollows, neither of which are large enough to have any restaurants or stores of any kind - unless someone has a small store in a converted porch. They may sell crackers, but any ketchup will be in larger containers or cans.

But these two random hollows share a common location that does have a McDonald's.

And if you are in Barrett, WV it is even closer to Van, WV where the schools are, and which has a dollar store, which surely has crackers and catsup. And the High School serves breakfast. For that matter, a school is a surer sign of civilization than McDonald's isn't it?

Nobody lives in eastern West Virginia. I don't know whether the Greenbriar has ketchup. You may have to make do with cocktail sauce.

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there and that the state isn't difficult to navigate compared to most others). The reality is that there are many hollers and towns with only a handful of people in them, but they are everywhere and traversing even a short geographical distance in most directions takes twice as long as it would even in other Appalachian regions. All of that adds up. It's not inherently about whether ketchup packets are present or whether one particular fast-food chain exists, but the cumulative effect of all of it on retail, commercial, residential and even familial dynamics.

And 40% of West Virginians live in the eastern portions (excluding the Panhandle, where another 10% live), which was roughly the only area GMA was implying was Appalachian by any stretch.

You responded to a claim that there wasn't a McDonald's within 20 minutes of every person in the Mountain State. But even Barrett is within 25 minutes. And Barrett is extremely isolated. It takes 15 minutes to get to the schools in Van, and Van HS is literally one of the smallest high schools in the state (108 students).

Incidentally, there are 138 McDonald's in West Virginia or about one for every 12,500 persons.

This is what I was referring to as eastern West Virginia. You can't seriously claim that McDowell and Raleigh or the Monongahela valley are in eastern West Virginia. You might as well claim Pittsburgh or Hancock county because if you go east you are in Pennsylvania.

https://davesredistricting.org/join/09177813-40d0-4640-a648-9405659557ba

Just pick out the counties with large election precincts. These 12 counties have barely more than Kanawha County.

It is indeed hard to find a McDonald's near the Pocahontas County, perhaps an hour drive from Marlinton. But there are plenty of restaurants in Marlinton. They might not have catsup, but they may have endive. And there is a DQ if you want a burger.

[Adam Griffin]

The argument was made that most persons in West Virginia lived within 20 minutes of a McDonalds.

Your contrary illustration was that it was hard to travel between two remote hollows, neither of which are large enough to have any restaurants or stores of any kind - unless someone has a small store in a converted porch. They may sell crackers, but any ketchup will be in larger containers or cans.

But these two random hollows share a common location that does have a McDonald's.

And if you are in Barrett, WV it is even closer to Van, WV where the schools are, and which has a dollar store, which surely has crackers and catsup. And the High School serves breakfast. For that matter, a school is a surer sign of civilization than McDonald's isn't it?

Nobody lives in eastern West Virginia. I don't know whether the Greenbriar has ketchup. You may have to make do with cocktail sauce.

The argument was in regards to a broad claim made by GMA (that WV isn't mountainous/Appalachian, that people aren't poor there and that the state isn't difficult to navigate compared to most others). The reality is that there are many hollers and towns with only a handful of people in them, but they are everywhere and traversing even a short geographical distance in most directions takes twice as long as it would even in other Appalachian regions. All of that adds up. It's not inherently about whether ketchup packets are present or whether one particular fast-food chain exists, but the cumulative effect of all of it on retail, commercial, residential and even familial dynamics.

And 40% of West Virginians live in the eastern portions (excluding the Panhandle, where another 10% live), which was roughly the only area GMA was implying was Appalachian by any stretch.

You responded to a claim that there wasn't a McDonald's within 20 minutes of every person in the Mountain State. But even Barrett is within 25 minutes. And Barrett is extremely isolated. It takes 15 minutes to get to the schools in Van, and Van HS is literally one of the smallest high schools in the state (108 students).

Incidentally, there are 138 McDonald's in West Virginia or about one for every 12,500 persons.

This is what I was referring to as eastern West Virginia. You can't seriously claim that McDowell and Raleigh or the Monongahela valley are in eastern West Virginia. You might as well claim Pittsburgh or Hancock county because if you go east you are in Pennsylvania.

https://davesredistricting.org/join/09177813-40d0-4640-a648-9405659557ba

Just pick out the counties with large election precincts. These 12 counties have barely more than Kanawha County.

It is indeed hard to find a McDonald's near the Pocahontas County, perhaps an hour drive from Marlinton. But there are plenty of restaurants in Marlinton. They might not have catsup, but they may have endive. And there is a DQ if you want a burger.

Again, the full context of his [entire] post was that WV isn't some "sprawling wasteland", that everybody is close to civilization (unless they're at a "ski resort"), and that nobody in WV lives in the Appalachian mountains. The fact that I didn't quote his entire spiel while addressing him in order to avoid some big, bulky blockquote engagement (guess it's too late now!) doesn't really change that. Despite the fact that all of this wrong to varying degrees - and since you still want to be pedantic about McDonald's - then let's look at your original post: "<20 minutes" according to him is less than "25 minutes", so wrong, wrong, wrong!

Frankly, I don't give a s[inks]t about McDonald's. And as far as any idiomatic antitheses apply here, I'm much more someone who believes in the "spirit" of one's comments than the "letter". Dude was basically implying that WV isn't isolated, poor or Appalachian: all of that can (and has) been disproven. Beyond that, I'm not interested in arguing about how much drive time to Mickey D's is involved (only that said drive time is much more than it would be between virtually any 2 other points in linear distance anywhere in the continental US because of WV's inherent geographical isolation).

As far as geographic definitions are concerned, I did my best to reflect what OP meant by looking at a single map and making a gross misjudgment. The area on my map mostly reflects the area at the highest elevations in the state as a whole [2] (and yes, that includes portions of McDowell and Wyoming, while excluding most of the Panhandle).

[jimrtex]

Access to McDonald's

https://davesredistricting.org/join/09177813-40d0-4640-a648-9405659557ba

Red: McDonald's in county seat*
Yellow: McDonald's within 20 minutes of county seat.
Green: McDonald's within 20-30 minutes of county seat.
Blue: McDonald's more than 30 minutes from county seat.

The last two represent 3.7% of the population that can be considered McDonald's deserts.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

After all this nonsence in the thread, let me ask the simple question ?. Does the average rural resident of west virginia have access to Ketchup packets ?

[Diabolical Materialism]

After all this nonsence in the thread, let me ask the simple question ?. Does the average rural resident of west virginia have access to Ketchup packets ?

Yes