Who Do you Think Is The Most Overrated General of All Time?
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  Who Do you Think Is The Most Overrated General of All Time?
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Author Topic: Who Do you Think Is The Most Overrated General of All Time?  (Read 1058 times)
Pink Panther
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« on: July 20, 2021, 10:17:59 PM »

There are many choices, but if you narrowed it down to one, who would it be?
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JacksonHitchcock
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2021, 11:05:39 PM »

Rommel
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2021, 10:57:09 PM »

Guan Yu.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 10:55:56 AM »
« Edited: July 22, 2021, 11:56:05 AM by c r a b c a k e »

Well, the politicians for one (Caesar, Napoleon, edit because I forgot Washington) but one can recognise their skill at propaganda was a pro in its own way.

Here's take: brusilov is often seen as the only smart guy in the Tsarist machine and, yeah, he was a very good tactician, but the long-term impact of his offensive was absolutely disastrous for Russian morale.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 11:51:41 AM »
« Edited: July 22, 2021, 12:17:49 PM by Filuwaúrdjan »

Well, the politicians for one (Caesar, Napoleon) but one can recognise their skill at propaganda was a skill in its own way.

C.f. Caesar managing to palm off his failed expeditions to Britain as successes of a sort.

Quote
Here's take: brusilov is often seen as the only smart guy in the Tsarist machine and, yeah, he was a very good tactician, but the long-term impact of his offensive was absolutely disastrous for Russian morale.

It's always very telling when he gets rated highly. One of the most objectively disastrous generals in a war full of them: there will probably never be a better (or more horrifying) example of a Pyrrhic Victory than the Brusilov Offensive. A million of his own men dead on the not even unreasonable higher estimates!
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CrabCake
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 12:03:18 PM »

Here's another good example: Santa Anna in Mexico. I know he is seen as a mixed bag in the country but i struggle to see anything remotely competent about him aside from his ability to return from the dead. It's like if some useless Civil War general like McClellan kept on winning presidential elections, failing, being driven out in disgrace and then coming back again.
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Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 05:38:50 PM »


Rommel wasn't a bad general but is still a great answer here just because of how absurdly overinflated the Golden Legend of St. Rommel is.

On a similar note, Lee.
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 09:39:20 PM »

All of them, because there is no honor and pride in being a high-level, professional mass murderer.
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JacksonHitchcock
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 09:51:26 PM »

All of them, because there is no honor and pride in being a high-level, professional mass murderer.

I’m trying to be morally superior for $500, Alex.
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Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 10:16:28 PM »

Came here to say this

Also Lee and Jackson

They aren’t total incompetents, but they are vastly overrated
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JacksonHitchcock
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2021, 10:30:44 PM »

Came here to say this

Also Lee and Jackson

They aren’t total incompetents, but they are vastly overrated

Yea, their victories are totally overblown, but none of them were awful or great generals just the definition of mediocrity.
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Rand
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 10:50:33 PM »

MacArthur. Never understood him. He obeyed FDR's orders to flee the country he was charged with protecting, then balked at Truman's orders and showed outright arrogance in his command of the Korean War. It's a good thing we got President Eisenhower and not President MacArthur.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2021, 12:37:48 AM »

The issue with Lee is that he was pretty damn good at tactical victories and short term strategy for a campaign or so but if you look at multiple battles his casualty percentage was always higher than the Union's. This is just awful from most strategical perspectives.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_Battles
110k vs 92k
15k vs 20k casualties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antietam
85k vs 38k
12k vs 12k casualties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fredericksburg
122k vs 80k
12k vs 5k casualties. Finally a better ratio for Lee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chancellorsville
130k vs 60k
17k vs 12k casualties
Gettysburg was just flat out awful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Wilderness
100k vs 60k
17k vs 11k or about equal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cold_Harbor
110k vs 60k
12k vs 5k.

Probably one of the worst errors by Grant though who truly was a general at least ahead of his time and able to learn from this.

Overall Lee was a good general and did the best with his resources but he wasn't a god tier general.
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Nathan
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2021, 01:57:43 AM »
« Edited: July 24, 2021, 08:31:49 PM by MR. NAPHTHALI BENNETT »

Gettysburg was just flat out awful.

I actually wasn't familiar with the Gettysburg casualty numbers so I looked it up. Sustaining more losses than the Union while outnumbered by about 3:2 is terrible, yes, although it looks like the Seven Days Battles were about as bad only with somewhat fewer losses on both sides.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2021, 03:54:03 AM »

Rommel wasn't a bad general but is still a great answer here just because of how absurdly overinflated the Golden Legend of St. Rommel is.

I entirely agree with this, which is why Erwin Rommel is my pick, although there is merit to CrabCake's point about politicians.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2021, 10:12:34 AM »

Gettysburg was just flat out awful.

I actually wasn't familiar with the Gettysburg casualty numbers so I looked it up. Sustaining more losses than the Union while outnumbered by about 3:2 is terrible, yes, although it looks like the Seen Days Battles were about as bad only with somewhat fewer losses on both sides.

I mean yes its true that Lee did win the 7 day battles with a pretty hard task but in the long run it was just bad for the Confederacy.  Even when Lee went on the offensive his goals were to capture/raid some northern cities. The clear goal of the Civil war was to capture an army which Lee failed to do in any meaningful amount.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chickamauga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattanooga_campaign

In this case Bragg suffered more casualties in his "victory" and then tried to besiege a city but the Union managed to send reinforcements.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2021, 01:45:40 PM »
« Edited: July 23, 2021, 01:56:07 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

Lee's strategic acumen is an interesting topic. I tend agree with his strategy in that the decisive battle on Union soil, as unlikely as it was, is the only way the Confederacy could have won the war. The alternative of a defensive strategy would have played into Union strengths and allowed the Confederacy to be slowly strangled.

Either way, it wasn't Lee who decided the war but what happened in the West.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2021, 03:16:52 PM »

It's weird to me to see Julius Caesar listed here, Crabcake. Did Caesar lose a fair amount? Sure. Dyrrhachium was a disaster for him. But Caesar was really good at minimizing the results of battles he lost and maximizing the results of battles he won. Caesar could've lost with incredible consequences at Alesia basically eliminating all Roman forces north of the Alps in the face of a Gallic confederation under Vercingetorix who would've reversed half a decade of Roman advances in Gaul overnight if he'd won. Pompey could've finished Caesar off at Dyrrhachium and preserved the corrupt Optimate dominated late Republic for another few decades. But he didn't and was always slippery and able to keep himself in play when he was down.


HERE'S a good answer for overrated, though it's a case where his personal prowess as a warrior ends up outweighing the fact that he was a total bonehead strategically and is basically directly responsible for Liu Bei's eventual losing the war.
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2021, 03:56:16 PM »

Entirely agreed on Rommel and Lee, both highly overrated as individuals (especially Rommel) and as commanders.

Lee was very good at winning largely meaningless tactical victories, Grant was very good at winning strategic victories that change the course of the war.

I'll add in Zhukov, very interesting guy with endless charisma, but I prefer Vasilevsky as a commander.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2021, 01:41:36 AM »

Robert E. Lee by far. While he was correct he had to win a bttle on the North to shift the balance of the war, he went about it in completely the wrong way. It's worth mentioning that whilema skilped tactician, he proved to an inept strategist. To stake absolutely everything on defending Richmond as opposed to withdrawing southwards and eluding Grant was insanity.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2021, 09:29:52 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2021, 09:37:51 AM by Statilius the Epicurean »

Robert E. Lee by far. While he was correct he had to win a bttle on the North to shift the balance of the war, he went about it in completely the wrong way. It's worth mentioning that whilema skilped tactician, he proved to an inept strategist. To stake absolutely everything on defending Richmond as opposed to withdrawing southwards and eluding Grant was insanity.

Richmond had the Tredegar Iron Works that were the only way the Confederacy could make munitions. If Richmond fell the war was over.

This is why I find criticism of Lee strange, because without him it's easily imaginable that McClellan captures Richmond in 1862 and the Confederacy disintegrates. The Army of Northern Virginia did its job really, the Confederacy lost because of the collapse of the Western theatre in 1864. It's somewhat unfair in my view to blame Lee for not singlehandedly winning the war (which is what he would have had to have done), and not saving the Confederate army in a different theatre. I think it's important to remember that Lee was a theatre commander, not in charge of Confederate grand strategy, and the blame for the Confederacy's strategic failure has to be laid at the feet of the incompetent CinC Jefferson Davis.  

I do accept that Lee is obviously overrated in American mythology, though.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2021, 10:47:43 AM »

I'll add in Zhukov, very interesting guy with endless charisma, but I prefer Vasilevsky as a commander.

Vasilevsky was a fine staff officer (whose major successes were joint operations with Zhukov), but Zhukov had victories all the way from corps commander to Stavka which no other WW2 general can claim. I also don’t think he’s overrated because people are well aware of his stereotype as a We Have Reserves Soviet general. Even in Russia he was politically out of favour and slighted in official histories until the fall of the USSR.

IDK Zhukov obviously had blunders, but there was more responsibility on his shoulders than any other general in military history. The scale of the battles he fought is staggering. And he got the job done.
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2021, 04:42:44 PM »

I'll add in Zhukov, very interesting guy with endless charisma, but I prefer Vasilevsky as a commander.

Vasilevsky was a fine staff officer (whose major successes were joint operations with Zhukov), but Zhukov had victories all the way from corps commander to Stavka which no other WW2 general can claim. I also don’t think he’s overrated because people are well aware of his stereotype as a We Have Reserves Soviet general. Even in Russia he was politically out of favour and slighted in official histories until the fall of the USSR.

IDK Zhukov obviously had blunders, but there was more responsibility on his shoulders than any other general in military history. The scale of the battles he fought is staggering. And he got the job done.

While it's true that Zhukov fell out of favor after the war (immediately so really), I feel as if he seems to personify the Soviet war effort in many modern tellings. Hence I said why he is overrated.

As for the scale of Zhukov's battles, he was absolutely a great General and of the highest importance, but you know there are those who say Vasilevsky was the real mastermind behind Stalingrad...

Not just Viktor Suvorov anyways.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2021, 10:26:56 PM »

Eisenhower is a pretty obvious example imo.
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StateBoiler
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2021, 09:11:23 AM »

MacArthur was the first person I thought of reading the thread title.

Eisenhower is a pretty obvious example imo.

D-Day is whatever to you?
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