Bush Aligns Himself With Southern Baptists (homophobic?)

[World Order]

i think faith casts a shadow over clarity. I dont believe in God because what the damage religion does to the world. take a look through history. A sin doesnt exist with me. its a crime to kill not be gay

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So, basically, it's not logical to label someone of phobe simply because they adhere to the teachings of their faith.  The main phobe I have is the fear of God.

[Mr. Fresh]

So, basically, it's not logical to label someone of phobe simply because they adhere to the teachings of their faith.  The main phobe I have is the fear of God.

Well put!  

[Alfie]

That's an interesting question -- one I'd never asked, or been asked about.  I'll need more data.

OK

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You state that you "stand against homosexuality."  How do you "stand" against it -- what do you do?

I "stand" against it just like I stand againt any immorality -  I do what the bible tells me to do:

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

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you wrote;

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Why?  I don't know -- I'm new here.  

Ok, then we'll start afresh.  My anger was more of an attention getter in order to spur a response.  And I think the lack of logic behind the “phobe” label is evident.  So let’s continue.

Okay.  Here are my thoughts:

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I’ve given this a lot of thought.  I almost got sidetracked on the “religious” part of  your posting, but I have been very careful in just leaving that bundle of snakes alone, for purposes of replying in a direct manner.

If there were a hierarchy of “sins” against other human beings, the pyramid would be;


1.   Racism
2.   Bigotry
3.   Prejudice


“Sins” specifically against Gays would be:
1.   Homophobia
2.   Bigotry
3.   Prejudice


Below are common dictionary definitions of homophobia, bigotry, and prejudice:


Homophobia:  A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.  A strong fear, dislike, or aversion.   An intense, abnormal, or illogical fear of a specified thing.

Bigotry:  The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

Prejudice:  An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. S preconceived preference or idea. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.


My conclusion:


Because of the mental health implication of “phobia”, I think the word is well-worn, and may, like “anti-Semitism”, have become more of a hurled four-letter-word than a diagnosis.  The depth of anger and irrationality required to “meet” the criteria for a true homophobe is high.  I suspect you do not meet that threshold.

Are you a bigot, a “bible-nazi”, a prejudiced person, an unformed person, or simply a man of your own opinion?  I don’t know, because I know you only from what you write.  It’s not my job or my passion to go around labeling people (aside from politically) for what they believe.
 
I would only say that in the matter of sexual prejudice, religion is fundamentally a part of the problem. The same Scripture affirms segregation, no?  But again, I do not want to wander into that area.

What I do know is that deep convictions have inherent in them some very strong prejudices.  Being a Gay man, I know the sting.

- Alfie

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I would only say that in the matter of sexual prejudice, religion is fundamentally a part of the problem. The same Scripture affirms segregation, no?  But again, I do not want to wander into that area.

The bible begins with no segregation at all.  Later in the Old Testament, the Law of Moses separated Jews (who were a people set apart for God’s purposes) from Gentiles, not whites from blacks.  But the Old Testament prophesied the removal of the distinction between Jew and Gentile

The New Testament teaches us that one of the reasons Christ came to earth was to destroy the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles, so that now there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesy.  

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What I do know is that deep convictions have inherent in them some very strong prejudices.  Being a Gay man, I know the sting.

And…?  Is there or is there not justification to label Christians adhering to teachings of scripture as homophobic?

[opebo]

I would say that Christianity is homophobic.

[Alfie]

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No.  It is unjustified, unfair, and is its own form of prejudice, to make said statement.

- Alfie

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

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No.  It is unjustified, unfair, and is its own form of prejudice, to make said statement.

- Alfie

We agree, thanks for the conversation.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I would say that Christianity is homophobic.

Would you say it also has phobias against fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, murder, etc, etc?

[Lunar]

I suppose the reason why homosexuality gets its own phobia is that its phobia has taken a new definition from the root words.

  1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
   2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

Its definition has expanded to include the word "contempt."  If you don't consider that definition to be insulting or offensive if someone were to apply it to you, then that's fine.  But many do, and thus it's bandered around like it is.

[Shira]

The so called "Religious Right".

Other civilized nations do not have this trouble.

[Lunar]

The so called "Religious Right".

Other civilized nations do not have this trouble.

Other civilized nations do not have a religious right?  Are you serious?

Japan and Eastern Europe are the only exceptions I can think of.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I would love for any of you hypocritical liars to explain why taking a stand against homosexuality is a "phobia", while at the same time taking stands against fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, murder, etc are not considered "phobias".

They hurt people, being gay is a personal choice.  And no, its not a condition just because only 1 of 10 or whatever it is are gay.  1/10 people are left-handed, something wrong with them?  

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I would love for any of you hypocritical liars to explain why taking a stand against homosexuality is a "phobia", while at the same time taking stands against fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, murder, etc are not considered "phobias".

They hurt people, being gay is a personal choice.  And no, its not a condition just because only 1 of 10 or whatever it is are gay.  1/10 people are left-handed, something wrong with them?  

I don't understand your reply.

[awfernan2002]

jmfcst,

 I agree with you but perhaps offer a different spin in response.

"homophobia" arises in the sense that many people do not feel comfortable being around gays, much less so than being around other "sinners".  Joe Six-pack, who believes that adultery and stealing are wrong, views these transgressions as moral lapses that people wrongly fall into, whereas homosexuality is seen as a lifestyle and is associated with men in black leather in Greenwich village or Castro district.  Bill Clinton was a prominent liar and adulterer, but darned if he wouldn't be fun to have a few brewskis and pizza with; I don't think most people could say the same of Harvey Fierstein.

Thus, homophobia could be described as the excessive attention (read: animus) toward homosexuality that is not proportionate with that of other sins.  

[??????????]

People say that being against homosexuality is homophobia. Homophobia is being afraid of homosexuals. I am not, nor ever have been afraid of much of anything. I know a few homosexuals and they are really good people, their lifestyle however I find abhorent.

[Alfie]

People say that being against homosexuality is homophobia. Homophobia is being afraid of homosexuals. I am not, nor ever have been afraid of much of anything. I know a few homosexuals and they are really good people, their lifestyle however I find abhorent.

Which "lifestyle" might that be, Senator?


- Alfie

[??????????]

People say that being against homosexuality is homophobia. Homophobia is being afraid of homosexuals. I am not, nor ever have been afraid of much of anything. I know a few homosexuals and they are really good people, their lifestyle however I find abhorent.

Which "lifestyle" might that be, Senator?


- Alfie

The homosexual lifestyle.

[Alfie]

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Senator replied;

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But that's terribly vague.  I know many Gay folks, and I don't have an opinion as to their -- or your -- lifestyles. I just don't.  But you do have an opinion, and apparently a strong one.  You stated:

"I know a few homosexuals and they are really good people, their lifestyle however I find abhorent."

So what do you find "abhorent" (I believe you meant "abhorrent")?  I mean no matter how you slice it, or spell it, "abhorrent" is an extremely emotional term, as in:

"Disgusting, loathsome, or repellent.   Feeling repugnance or loathing.   Being strongly opposed. Offensive to the mind, morally repugnant, detestable"

So again, I ask: "Which lifestyle might that be?"


- Alfie

[??????????]

The sexual act of sodomy. Do you need me to get more descriptive or post pictures?

[Lunar]

People say that being against homosexuality is homophobia. Homophobia is being afraid of homosexuals.

The word also means "contempt of homosexuals" (definition above).  It's evolved beyond its original meaning.

[??????????]

So in conclusion to the (typical) liberal argument.

If you are for it you are a hero and should be applauded.

If you are against it you are a racist, bigot, homophobe, etc.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The so called "Religious Right".

Other civilized nations do not have this trouble.

Other civilized nations do not have a religious right?  Are you serious?

Japan and Eastern Europe are the only exceptions I can think of.

they exist but they don't wield as much power as in the US. the only nations that have more powerful ones are theocratic ones.

[Alfie]

Ah, I see.  Sodomy.  No, no pix, please!


But sodomy, and correct me if I err, is a sex act, right?  It involves the "insertion of a penis into an anus, or the mouth."  But... but... don't heterosexuals engage in sodomy?  Sure they do!


"Eight percent of males, and six percent of females reported having anal sex at least once a month during the year prior to the survey. Of these, most engage in this activity one to five times per month."


I had no idea.  That' an awful lot of people engaging in sodomy.


"76.6 percent of heterosexual adult males had performed oral sex, while 78.7 percent had received oral sex. The corresponding figures for adult heterosexual females were 67.7 percent and 73.1 percent."

My God!  Better than three quarters of heterosexuals have engaged in sodomy!  

You stated that you believe Gays have an "abhorrent" lifestyle, and the reason you believe it is "abhorrent" is because they engage in acts of sodomy.  There's no moral equivocation or doubt in your statement -- you have an issue with sodomy.  So here is the obvious question:

Where is your moral "abhorrence" towards your heterosexual friends?[/red]


- Alfie

[??????????]

Men and Men don't belong together. Basic biology tells you the plumbing don't fit. I don't consider oral sex sodomy.