More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds
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  More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds
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Author Topic: More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds  (Read 3284 times)
John Dule
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« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2021, 12:36:01 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.


1. That take takes me back to high school when folks coming out were scoffed as millennials just "going through a phase" or "following a fad", not unlike wearing skinny jeans. The more things change Roll Eyes

2. What a murderers row that is the list of recommendations. Only folks missing are OP & DaleCooper.

Why are you always so obsessed with who recommends posts?

A lot of red avatars try to invalidate arguments by pointing out that bad people liked it. The social media obsession probably plays a big part too.

Don't worry, his opinion is now invalid because I recommended his post.
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2021, 12:57:32 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2021, 01:06:27 PM by Fmr. Gov. NickG »


The key difference in your analogy is that identifying a certain gender is all that's needed to "become" that gender, while identifying as part of a different race, ethnic group, or socioeconomic class cannot make you a part of it.

But this argument is begging the entire question.

The claim that "identifying a certain gender is all that's needed to "become" that gender" is certainly not a universally agreed upon premise, even among trans people.

Obviously, there are people that believe you need to be born a certain gender to legitimately claim a gender identity, but that's not what I'm talking about.

There are people who believe you need to experience dysphoria in order to claim a gender identity different than the one assigned at birth.  There are people that believe you need to take some affirmative visible step(s) toward transitioning in order to claim a different gender identity.  There are people who claim you need to "live your life as" the gender you choose to identify with.  But in all these cases, bare identification is not enough.

If you do wish to remove all considerations of gender dysphoria, physical attributes, or visible presentation from gender identification, how are race and gender not equally pure social constructs?  
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HisGrace
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2021, 01:05:00 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2021, 01:26:36 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who a legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.

The debate over "transmedicalism" (believing that dysphoria is required to identify as transgender) is ancient and ugly, and best avoided. While it's possible for some cases, it's generally not considerate to jump to the assumption that people choose to identify as trans, and thus incur all of the associated risks, merely as an aesthetic statement.

But isn’t the medical basis for gender dysphoria the primary reason why identifying as transgender is seen as legitimate while identifying as transracial is not?

Diagnosable gender dysphoria is also the basis for the trans activist arguments for insurance companies covering reassignment surgery, and for requiring prisons to pay for surgery for trans inmates. Without any objective or diagnosable medical criteria, it is essentially no different from cosmetic surgery.

I've thought about this before, there are two distinct perspectives here that would make sense

1. Sex Change as Medical Procedure

From this perspective gender dysphoria would be treated as a mental disorder that could be treated with sex reassignment. That would require a diagnosis from a doctor or mental health professional. This would ensure a lot of things that trans activists are fighting about now (required health coverage, protection from discrimination, the right of minors to take puberty blockers and have a sex change).

2. Sex Change as Elective Procedure

In this case sex changes would just be an elective cosmetic surgery that adults could choose to have. However in this case transpeople would not really be considered a "class" of person so it would be a stretch to apply anti-discrimination laws to them. Also if it's a non-medically necessary elective surgery insurance wouldn't be required to cover it and you probably wouldn't let minors have it, at least not without the permission of their guardian.

The problem is the social justice left currently is treating this like a grab bag and free associating these two perspectives even though they directly contradict each other. Which is why their arguments are breaking down and confusing people. As I alluded to I think the first one gives them most of what they want.
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SWE
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« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2021, 02:17:38 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2021, 02:21:23 PM »

I do think it's likely that there are some people who are legitimately non-binary; i.e. they feel genuine gender dysphoria over identifying with either gender.

But I also get the impression that a significant number of people who now identify as nonbinary don't actually experience any dysphoria in the medical sense.

Rather, they are mostly just embracing an aesthetic that has become popular within a certain Gen-Z niche.  Somewhat like the kids who identified as "goths" back when I was in high school.


1. That take takes me back to high school when folks coming out were scoffed as millennials just "going through a phase" or "following a fad", not unlike wearing skinny jeans. The more things change Roll Eyes

2. What a murderers row that is the list of recommendations. Only folks missing are OP & DaleCooper.

Not anymore!
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2021, 02:24:13 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?

I’ve honestly never heard an answer that doesn’t ultimately fall back on gender stereotypes that would otherwise be considered sexist.
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SWE
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« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2021, 02:29:17 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?


A man is someone who identifies as a man. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman
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Figueira
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« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2021, 02:48:58 PM »

Awesome. Probably would be more if it were more socially acceptable to identify as such.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2021, 02:57:10 PM »
« Edited: June 25, 2021, 03:03:23 PM by HisGrace »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?


A man is someone who identifies as a man. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman

If that was all there was to it it would be an empty concept and there'd be no reason anyone would be upset about being misgendered.

Also it just drifts into nonsensical territory. For a concept to exist there has to be a manifestation of the concept. Even for imaginary things there is a definition of what it would be if it existed. Saying a man is someone who identifies as a man is circular reasoning and doesn't answer the question.
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SWE
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« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2021, 03:40:48 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?


A man is someone who identifies as a man. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman

If that was all there was to it it would be an empty concept and there'd be no reason anyone would be upset about being misgendered.

Also it just drifts into nonsensical territory. For a concept to exist there has to be a manifestation of the concept. Even for imaginary things there is a definition of what it would be if it existed. Saying a man is someone who identifies as a man is circular reasoning and doesn't answer the question.
Gender is an empty concept, correct, and it is nonsense. If everyone understood gender as it actually existed, it would not exist. Unfortunately, we've spent millennia building rigid definitions around them with no basis, and anything that is a threat to those rigid definitions is going to be hard for most people who grew up in such a society to accept

It's also not circular reasoning any more than it's circular reasoning to define Republican as someone who identifies with the Republican party
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HisGrace
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« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2021, 04:09:09 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?


A man is someone who identifies as a man. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman

If that was all there was to it it would be an empty concept and there'd be no reason anyone would be upset about being misgendered.

Also it just drifts into nonsensical territory. For a concept to exist there has to be a manifestation of the concept. Even for imaginary things there is a definition of what it would be if it existed. Saying a man is someone who identifies as a man is circular reasoning and doesn't answer the question.
Gender is an empty concept, correct, and it is nonsense. If everyone understood gender as it actually existed, it would not exist. Unfortunately, we've spent millennia building rigid definitions around them with no basis, and anything that is a threat to those rigid definitions is going to be hard for most people who grew up in such a society to accept

It's also not circular reasoning any more than it's circular reasoning to define Republican as someone who identifies with the Republican party

Well I think the more productive route would be to eliminate gender as a separate concept from sex and just let people live their lives as they please. I also question how much of a "threat" it is to traditional gender roles. It's easier for some people to say that effeminate men are "actually" women instead of acknowledging that effeminate men exist, hence the relative tolerance for it in places like Iran.

Even if there's not one agreed upon definition saying you're a Republican still has certain implications to it, much like there is implied essentialism in saying you "identify" as a man or a woman beyond what your body is. If a cis person tried to say he or she had a "brain sex" that person would likely be shouted down or even denounced as sexist. Being trans does not make the "brain sex" concept any less baseless.

None of this precludes transpeople from being able to get sex reassignment either. The focus should be on things pertaining to that (health coverage, discrimination) and not on trying shove post-modern psychobabble down everyone's throat, which is what is causing the current backlash.
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John Dule
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« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2021, 05:22:53 PM »

Gender is an empty concept, correct, and it is nonsense. If everyone understood gender as it actually existed, it would not exist.

If you're ever wondering why so many people-- conservatives, moderates, and liberals alike-- find gender theory so irritating, it is because of comments like this. What you're saying here ignores the thousands of trans people who claim that their gender identity is innate, that it has been with them since birth, and that it is a fundamental part of themselves that cannot be changed. In turn, these claims fly in the face of the "genderfluid" people, who claim that for them, gender is a fundamental part of themselves but it can also change from day to day. On and on it goes. The entire vocabulary surrounding this subject is just utter nonsense; it was invented by bitter Tumblr teenagers and tenured """academics""" who have crafted a linguistic minefield for themselves that they use to shield their ideas from criticism. I have said it before and I'll say it again: Until gender theory adherents can agree upon rigidly defined terms and criteria with which to describe their beliefs, they will be impossible to communicate with, and trying to reason with them will be fruitless.

I give Christians a lot of guff, but at least they put some effort into creating a consistent vocabulary for their unsubstantiated beliefs in fuzzy intangibles.
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Fmr. Gov. NickG
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« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2021, 07:28:39 PM »

Even if there was so contingent of people who aren't really trans (whatever that's supposed to mean), who cares. Just let people live their lives. Not sure why the continued maintenance of rigid gender roles is so important to so many people here

As I've said before, suggesting that how someone dresses and behaves determines that person's gender is actually what maintains rigid gender roles.
Good thing nobody says that?

Then what then does determine gender?


A man is someone who identifies as a man. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman

If that was all there was to it it would be an empty concept and there'd be no reason anyone would be upset about being misgendered.

Also it just drifts into nonsensical territory. For a concept to exist there has to be a manifestation of the concept. Even for imaginary things there is a definition of what it would be if it existed. Saying a man is someone who identifies as a man is circular reasoning and doesn't answer the question.
Gender is an empty concept, correct, and it is nonsense. If everyone understood gender as it actually existed, it would not exist. Unfortunately, we've spent millennia building rigid definitions around them with no basis, and anything that is a threat to those rigid definitions is going to be hard for most people who grew up in such a society to accept

It's also not circular reasoning any more than it's circular reasoning to define Republican as someone who identifies with the Republican party

If gender is an entirely empty concept that is only defined by bare self-identification, why couldn’t you say the same thing about race? 

There are clearly more discrete physical differences between the genders as assigned at birth than between people who are assigned different races at birth.  So how can you say that these differences are irrelevant to determining one’s actual gender, but decisive in determining one’s race?
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TheReckoning
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2021, 03:14:44 AM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2021, 12:12:42 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.
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ηєω ƒяσηтιєя
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« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2021, 12:53:03 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.
But what does that mean?


You haven't answered my questions from a couple pages ago:
I get that part. However, do non-binary people feel as though they have no gender at all or that they don't fit into the gender stereotypes of being a "male" or "female"? Or am I wrong?
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« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2021, 12:59:15 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.
But what does that mean?


You haven't answered my questions from a couple pages ago:
I get that part. However, do non-binary people feel as though they have no gender at all or that they don't fit into the gender stereotypes of being a "male" or "female"? Or am I wrong?

Some identify with neither, some consider themselves in-between but maybe closer to one or the other, some fall into historical practices of gender non-conformity, and so on. It's a blanket term.
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« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2021, 01:05:58 PM »

Ultimately, if you give people a choice, as artificial and concocted as it might be, you'll always get a number of people who choose Option #2. This is being marketed very well on university campuses, more commonly to women than to men. I think given more freedom more people will choose to live lives that defy gender expectations somewhat, and you see that trend across the world, but in many places people talk about it in a different way, rather than pulling new genders out of a hat.

In progressive discourse, you will sometimes have people claiming this or that culture recognizes 3 genders - men, women, and then some foreign word. And you go to translate that foreign word and find out it means "false women" or something. I think that's a good example of what I'd call "progressive Orientalism."
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parochial boy
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« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2021, 01:08:01 PM »

people who are assigned different races at birth

I think since the end of apartheid in South Africa that doesn't really happen any more
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John Dule
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« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2021, 01:13:35 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2021, 01:48:09 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.

You're not making any sense.
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John Dule
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« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2021, 01:58:29 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.

You're not making any sense.

Read it over a few times; I have faith in your reading comprehension skills.
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« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2021, 01:58:31 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.

You're not making any sense.

Some people just cling to their perceived right to be close-minded, hateful sophists.
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John Dule
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« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2021, 02:12:22 PM »

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.

You're not making any sense.

Some people just cling to their perceived right to be close-minded, hateful sophists.

The only word I take issue with here is "perceived."
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