More than 1 million nonbinary adults live in the US, study finds

[Figueira]

The "gender is a social construct" thing is an ongoing debate in the trans community, so it's just as likely that two people are saying two different things as it is that one person is being a hypocrite, but it's probably likely that some people simply haven't thought it through enough to have a coherent opinion (which is fine--not everyone thinks about this on a regular basis and no one should feel obligated to).

My view, though, is that since binary trans people exist (and this has been confirmed in neurological studies) it's pretty clear that psychological gender is "real" and that it usually corresponds, but doesn't always correspond, to biological sex (which also isn't 100% binary, but most people are biologically either male or female--even if you consider being intersex to be a "disorder", the fact is that intersex people exist). Where non-binary people fit into this isn't really known, and I think there are definitely cases where two people with the exact same inherent psychological gender might have two completely different conceptions of what their gender is, it doesn't seem like too much of a leap to assume that if male brains and female brains exist, brains that are somewhere in between exist as well. Does every non-binary person have an accurate understanding of this? Almost certainly not, because no one knows what it's like inside another person's head, so they don't really have anything to compare themselves to. However, I think that it's reasonable to assume that everyone who identifies as non-binary is doing so in good faith.

(Obligatory disclaimer that I'm not arguing with people who are only interested in religious zealotry and/or owning the libs, just countering them in the event that other people are finding themselves swayed by those people's arguments. Also trans and non-binary people, or anyone who knows better, feel free to challenge or correct anything I said.)

[TheReckoning]

It's also not circular reasoning any more than it's circular reasoning to define Republican as someone who identifies with the Republican party

Nope. Putting aside the fact that “Republican” technically has an extremely objective definition (someone who is registered the Republican Party), if someone asked me what the Republican Party was, I could respond with “The Republican Party is an American political party which tends to promote policies such as…” In other words, I could tell you what the Republican Party is. Meanwhile, if I you told me, “a woman is someone who identifies as a woman,” then the term woman becomes so meaningless one would wonder why it even exists. At that point, we might as well just refer to sex, but doing so would be considered “transphobic.”

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Until someone can even give a semi-coherent definition on what “non-binary” means, I’ll remain convinced it’s more or less just a way for people to make themselves sound more different and oppressed.

It means someone does not identify as male or female.

But I thought gender was a social construct. And since our society hasn't constructed gender roles for any genders aside from male and female, a "nonbinary" person has no alternative genders available to them to identify as.

Maybe “assigned at birth” is not completely analogous terminology when talking about race.  But you know what I mean.  Typically, I’m referring to someone who would like to identify as a race different than either of their biological parents identify as.

[ultraviolet]

Yes, the idea of gender as a choice goes against the effort to tear down gender roles. If you are a man who wants to act/dress/etc in a way more like to women, go for it. But now it has become fashionable to just claim you’re a woman.

Being uncomfortable in one’s body is because of gender roles; you shouldn’t have to “feel” like a male or a female. Bowing down to gender roles by changing genders, rather than living your life and challenging them, only reinforces said roles.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yes, the idea of gender as a choice goes against the effort to tear down gender roles. If you are a man who wants to act/dress/etc in a way more like to women, go for it. But now it has become fashionable to just claim you’re a woman.

Being uncomfortable in one’s body is because of gender roles; you shouldn’t have to “feel” like a male or a female. Bowing down to gender roles by changing genders, rather than living your life and challenging them, only reinforces said roles.

Do you really think trans people, who face high rates of unemployed, poverty, and violence, are doing it because it’s “fashionable”? I understand being confused and not getting certain things absolutely the community, but callous dismissal like that is just ignorant and wrong.

(And when one wants to be perceived as a certain gender by society, one tends to conform to what that society expects of that gender.)

[Figueira]

Do you really think trans people, who face high rates of unemployed, poverty, and violence, are doing it because it’s “fashionable”? I understand being confused and not getting certain things absolutely the community, but callous dismissal like that is just ignorant and wrong.

(And when one wants to be perceived as a certain gender by society, one tends to confirms to what that society expects of that gender.)

Yep. Transphobes will get mad when a trans person conforms to gender norms, and then also get mad when trans people don't conform enough to gender norms. Also a lot of transphobes get mad when cis people don't conform to gender norms.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The "gender is a social construct" thing is an ongoing debate in the trans community, so it's just as likely that two people are saying two different things as it is that one person is being a hypocrite, but it's probably likely that some people simply haven't thought it through enough to have a coherent opinion (which is fine--not everyone thinks about this on a regular basis and no one should feel obligated to).

Just as a general comment, I do think it would be beneficial if there was more understanding that 'social construct' does not mean 'this thing is not real'. A social construct is absolutely real; that's the point. The foundational text, after all, happens to be called The Social Construction of Reality...

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

I guess no one has really attempted to answer my question.  If the acceptance of transgender identity is not based in gender dysphoria, and indeed gender is just a social construct, how is this distinguishable from transracial identity, which surely is at least as much of a social construct as gender?

[Figueira]

The "gender is a social construct" thing is an ongoing debate in the trans community, so it's just as likely that two people are saying two different things as it is that one person is being a hypocrite, but it's probably likely that some people simply haven't thought it through enough to have a coherent opinion (which is fine--not everyone thinks about this on a regular basis and no one should feel obligated to).

Just as a general comment, I do think it would be beneficial if there was more understanding that 'social construct' does not mean 'this thing is not real'. A social construct is absolutely real; that's the point. The foundational text, after all, happens to be called The Social Construction of Reality...

Fair enough, but I'm not even sure what the difference is between a social construct and a non-social construct, given that humans (as a species) have been social animals since the beginning.

[Figueira]

I guess no one has really attempted to answer my question.  If the acceptance of transgender identity is not based in gender dysphoria, and indeed gender is just a social construct, how is this distinguishable from transracial identity, which surely is at least as much of a social construct as gender?

I actually do think that gender is something that inherently exists in people's brains, so it's not purely a social construct. Race is more of a cultural phenomenon that's loosely based on biology.