Buffalo, NY - The Comeback Kid

[free my dawg]

I think we all knew that the party would never abandon Hochul. Unity is a one-way street in the Democratic party - leftists are only called on to get in line and support whatever slop the establishment throws to them.

[VBM]

I really don't agree with this. Unless there is some huge scandal that makes the Democratic nominee unacceptable I don't agree with getting ballot access on through the court after losing a primary.

Being a moron is a huge scandal.

Was excited to get a Democrat in office but that's clearly not the case here! "Vote blue no matter who" only applies to leftist voters and doesn't apply to leftist candidates. If Bernie or the Squad did this they'd be crucified. What a f**king joke this sh*t is.

Byron Brown is a Democrat.  Funny to see you melting down over this though.

I'm also curious what VBNMWEB did to become your new target.  It's sad but funny that you always use your screen name to attack your enemy of the month.

My username stands for Vote Blue No Matter Who Except Bernie (I would have written this out fully for my username, instead of using an acronym, had I known that this site would let me have an username that long). So he’s not attacking me

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I agree with Sawx that the judge should’ve recused himself to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest.  I also think Brown is pretty awful and acting like a spoiled brat.  Assuming Walton is more like Bernie/Ritchie Torres/Jamaal Bowman than AOC/Omar/Tlaib, I’d vote for her (my VBNMW rule is only for Presidential elections when Trump or a family member of his is in the ballot, I’d have voted for Nader in 2000).  Otherwise, I’d just sit this one out entirely.  I certainly wouldn’t reward Brown’s antics by voting for him in the GE.

That said, I don’t think there’s any evidence that Caban lost b/c of some sort of chicanery.  It’s not impossible, but right now it seems more likely that she lost fair and square by a razor thin margin.

[TrumpBritt24]

I agree with Sawx that the judge should’ve recused himself to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest.  I also think Brown is pretty awful and acting like a spoiled brat.  Assuming Walton is more like Bernie/Ritchie Torres/Jamaal Bowman than AOC/Omar/Tlaib, I’d vote for her (my VBNMW rule is only for Presidential elections when Trump or a family member of his is in the ballot, I’d have voted for Nader in 2000).  Otherwise, I’d just sit this one out entirely.  I certainly wouldn’t reward Brown’s antics by voting for him in the GE.

That said, I don’t think there’s any evidence that Caban lost b/c of some sort of chicanery.  It’s not impossible, but right now it seems more likely that she lost fair and square by a razor thin margin.

I regret to inform you she's 100% in the Squad progressive Democrat camp vs. the Bernie camp.

[gerritcole]

These same shady back room deals cost Nina turner in Ohio and Bernie in 2016/2020, true progressives do not pledge allegiance to the neoliberal democratic alliance

[free my dawg]

https://twitter.com/ChrisHorvatits4/status/1435702759056101389

Great news!

Glad to see the neoliberal-MAGA alliance thwarted and democracy preserved.

[Meatball Ron]

Glad to see the neoliberal-MAGA alliance thwarted and democracy preserved.

Lol, there's no "neoliberal-MAGA alliance"; Byron Brown is just an egomaniacal sore loser. I agree with you this is a great outcome.

Contrary to your username, VBNMW isn't BS, it's a great principle. But the NMW part is critical. Support India Walton. Support the Democratic nominee for President, whether it's Rashida Tlaib or Joe Manchin. I agree with you that some establishment Dems are hypocrites on this front. "VBNMW except BS" (which I believe is someone else's username) is laughably ironic.

[free my dawg]

Glad to see the neoliberal-MAGA alliance thwarted and democracy preserved.

Lol, there's no "neoliberal-MAGA alliance"; Byron Brown is just an egomaniacal sore loser. I agree with you this is a great outcome.

I'm more referring to the judge who made this ruling being a nakedly corrupt Trump hack. I find it funny that some of the centrists on here are suddenly okay with a blatantly activist ruling because it boosts their candidate. The ruling in the Walton case is, like many Supreme Court cases, totally devoid of legal precedence and chock full of partiality.

Contrary to your username, VBNMW isn't BS, it's a great principle. But the NMW part is critical. Support India Walton. Support the Democratic nominee for President, whether it's Rashida Tlaib or Joe Manchin. I agree with you that some establishment Dems are hypocrites on this front. "VBNMW except BS" (which I believe is someone else's username) is laughably ironic.

Sure, in practice it's a good principle. How it's carried out, it's absolutely BS and more proof of the one-way unity expectation.

The Democratic Party has an incredibly schizophrenic view of the left. They see them as responsible for everything bad that happened since 2016. They hate Bernie Sanders because he dared to challenge the party's main goal in the 21st century, and even go as far as to call him a foreign agent.

They trot out figures from outside the party to attack leftist darlings, and they stereotype the left as a group of rabble-rousing entryists instead of fellow members of the coalition. They cancel leftists for not getting in line while giving those who didn't keep that same energy when the left won a free pass, and choose not to support candidates for being "too far left" and "unelectable". Biden has made progress, but significant parts of the party establishment continue to demonize and marginalize the left at every turn.

At the same time, they recognize that there's no path to victory without the left's votes and browbeat them. You have the same people who promised never to back Bernie - even if he won the nomination - suddenly preaching unity when it was their candidate that prevailed. You have the same people who called Bernie a Russian agent suddenly telling his supporters to "listen to Bernie" and unite behind the nominee.

Instead of changing their approach to a more conciliatory one, or taking a stand against people who don't vote against the platform, they offer threats, bread and circuses, and empty platitudes. Instead of making sure the candidates, they hold an axe over our heads and browbeat us into voting. They spew BS platitudes about how we need to "raise the wage" and "expand access to healthcare" but choose to hide behind the parliamentarian and Manchin and Sinema when it comes time to do those things. You have them demonizing leftist candidates and voters while simultaneously demanding their votes.

I say VBNMW is BS because "voting blue no matter who" is only expected of one side. The Democratic Party doesn't want unity - they want left-wing submission.

[Meatball Ron]

Snip

Gotcha - thanks for clarifying. Obviously my view of the Democratic establishment is significantly more positive than yours, but I think you raise a ton of good points, and I appreciate you recognizing that Biden has made progress in this area. We're in full agreement that VBNMW is BS unless NMW actually means *NM*W lol

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

The blatant corruption here is embarrassing and outrageous. This fiasco in itself is good reason to vote for Walton. Hope this sways some people who are on the fence.

[LtNOWIS]

Don't the ballots have to be printed like, immediately, for any early/absentee voters? Will the appellate judges be able to actually rule on time?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Glad to see the neoliberal-MAGA alliance thwarted and democracy preserved.

Lol, there's no "neoliberal-MAGA alliance"; Byron Brown is just an egomaniacal sore loser. I agree with you this is a great outcome.

I'm more referring to the judge who made this ruling being a nakedly corrupt Trump hack. I find it funny that some of the centrists on here are suddenly okay with a blatantly activist ruling because it boosts their candidate. The ruling in the Walton case is, like many Supreme Court cases, totally devoid of legal precedence and chock full of partiality.

Contrary to your username, VBNMW isn't BS, it's a great principle. But the NMW part is critical. Support India Walton. Support the Democratic nominee for President, whether it's Rashida Tlaib or Joe Manchin. I agree with you that some establishment Dems are hypocrites on this front. "VBNMW except BS" (which I believe is someone else's username) is laughably ironic.

Sure, in practice it's a good principle. How it's carried out, it's absolutely BS and more proof of the one-way unity expectation.

The Democratic Party has an incredibly schizophrenic view of the left. They see them as responsible for everything bad that happened since 2016. They hate Bernie Sanders because he dared to challenge the party's main goal in the 21st century, and even go as far as to call him a foreign agent.

They trot out figures from outside the party to attack leftist darlings, and they stereotype the left as a group of rabble-rousing entryists instead of fellow members of the coalition. They cancel leftists for not getting in line while giving those who didn't keep that same energy when the left won a free pass, and choose not to support candidates for being "too far left" and "unelectable". Biden has made progress, but significant parts of the party establishment continue to demonize and marginalize the left at every turn.

At the same time, they recognize that there's no path to victory without the left's votes and browbeat them. You have the same people who promised never to back Bernie - even if he won the nomination - suddenly preaching unity when it was their candidate that prevailed. You have the same people who called Bernie a Russian agent suddenly telling his supporters to "listen to Bernie" and unite behind the nominee.

Instead of changing their approach to a more conciliatory one, or taking a stand against people who don't vote against the platform, they offer threats, bread and circuses, and empty platitudes. Instead of making sure the candidates, they hold an axe over our heads and browbeat us into voting. They spew BS platitudes about how we need to "raise the wage" and "expand access to healthcare" but choose to hide behind the parliamentarian and Manchin and Sinema when it comes time to do those things. You have them demonizing leftist candidates and voters while simultaneously demanding their votes.

I say VBNMW is BS because "voting blue no matter who" is only expected of one side. The Democratic Party doesn't want unity - they want left-wing submission.

I disagree with your reasoning here.  VBNMW absent extraordinary circumstances is a terrible rule because you’re then training yourself not to hold people on your side of the isle accountable.  If folks want leftist votes, they need to at least offer someone leftists can live with.  Beating Trump or someone like him is an extraordinary circumstance, but even with Senate races, there’s often no reason to vote for a GE Democratic nominee who opposes abolishing the filibuster.  Manchin has an excuse, but why not sit out the Arizona Senate GE or vote third party in that race if Sinema gets renominated?

[Sir Mohamed]

Snip

Gotcha - thanks for clarifying. Obviously my view of the Democratic establishment is significantly more positive than yours, but I think you raise a ton of good points, and I appreciate you recognizing that Biden has made progress in this area. We're in full agreement that VBNMW is BS unless NMW actually means *NM*W lol

Also understand the point; a more general thought: If we're being honest, isn't the problem that in our 2 party system people are in the same political party that usually don't belong in the same party. At least they wouldn't be in Canada or all European countries. Walton is a Democratic Socialist and Brown a standard Liberal like Trudeau.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I disagree with your reasoning here.  VBNMW absent extraordinary circumstances is a terrible rule because you’re then training yourself not to hold people on your side of the isle accountable.  If folks want leftist votes, they need to at least offer someone leftists can live with.  Beating Trump or someone like him is an extraordinary circumstance, but even with Senate races, there’s often no reason to vote for a GE Democratic nominee who opposes abolishing the filibuster.  Manchin has an excuse, but why not sit out the Arizona Senate GE or vote third party in that race if Sinema gets renominated?

Letting Republicans take power is the absolute worst way imaginable to "hold people on your side of the aisle accountable."

It's like people who rooted for al-Qaeda after seeing the Abu Ghraib images.

There are manifold other ways to achieve accountability.  You don't have to start rooting for the villains.


With all that said I can't believe the last few pages of whinging in this thread.  I haven't checked in in a while but it looks like people are still bitching about Byron Brown running in the general.  For the umpteenth time, "vote blue no matter who" is completely irrelevant to this situation because both candidates are Democrats.

You can try and say "oh Byron Brown isn't a real Democrat because he's supported by Republicans" but that just makes you sound like an idiot.  Joe Biden was supported by Republicans in his general.

[Meatball Ron]

I disagree with your reasoning here.  VBNMW absent extraordinary circumstances is a terrible rule because you’re then training yourself not to hold people on your side of the isle accountable.  If folks want leftist votes, they need to at least offer someone leftists can live with.  Beating Trump or someone like him is an extraordinary circumstance, but even with Senate races, there’s often no reason to vote for a GE Democratic nominee who opposes abolishing the filibuster.  Manchin has an excuse, but why not sit out the Arizona Senate GE or vote third party in that race if Sinema gets renominated?

Because we live in a two-party system, so any vote not cast for the Democrat is a boon to the Republican. I'm fine if you wanna vote third-party / abstain in a super safe Dem race, or if the Dem candidate is like a literal Nazi, obviously don't vote for them, but absent those circumstances, any Democrat is better than any Republican, so there's a moral imperative to vote for the Democrat. If that isn't obvious to you, I won't be able to convince you.

There are other ways to hold members of our own party accountable (e.g., primaries, protests, etc.)

At the end of the day, Sinema is a vote for Majority Leader Chuck Schumer while her general election opponent will be a vote for Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. As much as Sinema sucks, it's a pretty easy decision, and handing Republicans an extra vote in the Senate by refusing to vote for her would be an all-time self-own. But by all means, let's please primary her with Gallego or another credible, electable Democrat to her left.

[free my dawg]

Letting Republicans take power is the absolute worst way imaginable to "hold people on your side of the aisle accountable."

It's like people who rooted for al-Qaeda after seeing the Abu Ghraib images.

There are manifold other ways to achieve accountability.  You don't have to start rooting for the villains.


With all that said I can't believe the last few pages of whinging in this thread.  I haven't checked in in a while but it looks like people are still bitching about Byron Brown running in the general.  For the umpteenth time, "vote blue no matter who" is completely irrelevant to this situation because both candidates are Democrats.

You can try and say "oh Byron Brown isn't a real Democrat because he's supported by Republicans" but that just makes you sound like an idiot.  Joe Biden was supported by Republicans in his general.

I'm still waiting for you to address my counterpoint. Both candidates in the NH-SOS race in 2018 were Democrats as well. One of those Democrats, Bill Gardner, was objectively the de facto Republican candidate. The state party had largely abandoned him because he was acting like a Republican. He continued to campaign after losing his caucus's straw poll. By your logic it wouldn't be disloyal to support a man who backed Trump's sham commission because "both candidates are Democrats".

I'll acknowledge it's a bit of a stretch to compare Gardner to Brown. Brown is a machine Democrat who's looking to run a write-in campaign. Gardner was actively giving Trump cover to poison the well. At worst, he's a naive bothsidesist, and at best he's a full blown Trump supporter. But to compare the #NeverTrump wing backing Biden to local GOP groups, donors, and even members of the far-right boosting Brown is absurd. Especially when they're using the same logic you yourself have already decried while doing it.

[free my dawg]

Let's go over it again for the people who have trouble understanding:

What's okay:

* Supporting India Walton
* Supporting Byron Brown
* Voting straight Democratic down the line
* Picking and choosing whichever Democrats fit your ideology
* Advocating others take any of the positions I've mentioned are okay
* India Walton winning the mayoral race
* Byron Brown winning a write-in campaign on his own fair and square

What's not okay:

* Shaming others for not "voting blue no matter who" while not doing so yourself
* Judges not recusing themselves due to a conflict of interest
* Applauding corrupt right-wing judges making activist rulings for personal reasons
* The state party not supporting the Democrat that their voters picked

But then again the MacArthurs of the world know what they're doing. They know the corruption, they know the ties to Trump, and they know the hands-off approach to police brutality. They're completely aware that everything about this stinks to high heaven. They just don't care because it stops the Democrats they don't like from winning.

This is what I'm talking about when I talk about the "blue-brown alliance" and "blue MAGA". They'll do anything to stop the left - even if it means selling our democracy out to Trump.

[Badger]

Glad to see the unilateral disarmament is over!

Oh please. You couldn't even commit to voting for Biden in 2024. You of all people in this thread don't get to talk - at least MacArthur has been loyal to the party for years!

It's Q's party now. I can't see myself voting for Republicans any time soon. Besides, Biden's probably not running.

Anyway, after Nina Turner responded to her loss by spending days inciting against American Jews getting involved in politics, her entire wing can go to hell. Walton too.

tarring India Walton with that brush seems extremely unfair. Would you say the same thing about Bernie Sanders even though he is also a democratic socialist? Unless you can demonstrate Walton has made remotely similar anti-Semitic comments as the Undeniably reprehensible Nina Turner, this attack seems out of bounds.

[Badger]

Glad to see the unilateral disarmament is over!

Oh please. You couldn't even commit to voting for Biden in 2024. You of all people in this thread don't get to talk - at least MacArthur has been loyal to the party for years!

It's Q's party now. I can't see myself voting for Republicans any time soon. Besides, Biden's probably not running.

Anyway, after Nina Turner responded to her loss by spending days inciting against American Jews getting involved in politics, her entire wing can go to hell. Walton too.

The Republican Party being unacceptable to you doesn't automatically mean the Democratic Party is for you.

 Let's please not push this line of reasoning.

[free my dawg]

Let's please not push this line of reasoning.

To be fair to MANA, the other two candidates in this race are pro-Q and pro-COVID.

[TrumpBritt24]

Full Mayoral debate between Brown, Walton, Carlisle, and Miles, for those interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ7Dh02S7FQ&ab_channel=WGRZ-TV

[GoTfan]

I disagree with your reasoning here.  VBNMW absent extraordinary circumstances is a terrible rule because you’re then training yourself not to hold people on your side of the isle accountable.  If folks want leftist votes, they need to at least offer someone leftists can live with.  Beating Trump or someone like him is an extraordinary circumstance, but even with Senate races, there’s often no reason to vote for a GE Democratic nominee who opposes abolishing the filibuster.  Manchin has an excuse, but why not sit out the Arizona Senate GE or vote third party in that race if Sinema gets renominated?

Letting Republicans take power is the absolute worst way imaginable to "hold people on your side of the aisle accountable."

It's like people who rooted for al-Qaeda after seeing the Abu Ghraib images.

There are manifold other ways to achieve accountability.  You don't have to start rooting for the villains.


With all that said I can't believe the last few pages of whinging in this thread.  I haven't checked in in a while but it looks like people are still bitching about Byron Brown running in the general.  For the umpteenth time, "vote blue no matter who" is completely irrelevant to this situation because both candidates are Democrats.

You can try and say "oh Byron Brown isn't a real Democrat because he's supported by Republicans" but that just makes you sound like an idiot.  Joe Biden was supported by Republicans in his general.

You would not be saying the same thing if Brown won the primary and Walton still ran. You'd be calling her a sore loser and a Republican stooge.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I'm still waiting for you to address my counterpoint. Both candidates in the NH-SOS race in 2018 were Democrats as well. One of those Democrats, Bill Gardner, was objectively the de facto Republican candidate. The state party had largely abandoned him because he was acting like a Republican. He continued to campaign after losing his caucus's straw poll. By your logic it wouldn't be disloyal to support a man who backed Trump's sham commission because "both candidates are Democrats".

I'll acknowledge it's a bit of a stretch to compare Gardner to Brown. Brown is a machine Democrat who's looking to run a write-in campaign. Gardner was actively giving Trump cover to poison the well. At worst, he's a naive bothsidesist, and at best he's a full blown Trump supporter. But to compare the #NeverTrump wing backing Biden to local GOP groups, donors, and even members of the far-right boosting Brown is absurd. Especially when they're using the same logic you yourself have already decried while doing it.

So your counterpoint to "vote blue no matter who" is a case where someone with Republican policies and Republican behavior ran as a Democrat just cause?

No, if Donald Trump switched parties so that both he and Biden were both Democrats, I wouldn't say "vote blue no matter who" -- which doesn't even make sense in a blue-vs-blue election -- I would say "vote for the actual Democrat."  Just like I did in the OH-11 primary where Shontel Brown was running against a former proponent of two different third parties.  but situations like this are vanishingly uncommon.

You're really twisting yourself in knots to try and use this situation to undermine the phrase "vote blue no matter who" and it's not working at all.  Like your whole point makes no sense.  But you keep digging that hole deeper and deeper and deeper.

Simply having Republicans on your side doesn't make one a Republican.  You keep trying to play guilt by association and nobody is buying it.  I'm in the Recall Sawant movement here in Seattle.
 Our movement is supported by everyone to the right of Lenin, which is about half of the district.
 And the Sawant people keep trying to do the exact same thing.  Go through our donor rolls of tens of thousands of donors, find the most objectionable right-wing donor, slap his face on all the posters and say "that's the face of the right-wing racist republican recall."  Nobody's really buying it this time around, which is surprising because Seattle D3 voters are really, really, really dumb.

[Crane]

I disagree with your reasoning here.  VBNMW absent extraordinary circumstances is a terrible rule because you’re then training yourself not to hold people on your side of the isle accountable.  If folks want leftist votes, they need to at least offer someone leftists can live with.  Beating Trump or someone like him is an extraordinary circumstance, but even with Senate races, there’s often no reason to vote for a GE Democratic nominee who opposes abolishing the filibuster.  Manchin has an excuse, but why not sit out the Arizona Senate GE or vote third party in that race if Sinema gets renominated?

Letting Republicans take power is the absolute worst way imaginable to "hold people on your side of the aisle accountable."

It's like people who rooted for al-Qaeda after seeing the Abu Ghraib images.

There are manifold other ways to achieve accountability.  You don't have to start rooting for the villains.


With all that said I can't believe the last few pages of whinging in this thread.  I haven't checked in in a while but it looks like people are still bitching about Byron Brown running in the general.  For the umpteenth time, "vote blue no matter who" is completely irrelevant to this situation because both candidates are Democrats.

You can try and say "oh Byron Brown isn't a real Democrat because he's supported by Republicans" but that just makes you sound like an idiot.  Joe Biden was supported by Republicans in his general.

You would not be saying the same thing if Brown won the primary and Walton still ran. You'd be calling her a sore loser and a Republican stooge.

He really would be. He's a straight up hypocrite. I think his biggest problem with the shadowy Left is that they often talk about helping people he hates, like the homeless and mentally ill. Bezos paid for a homeless iniative to be destroyed with the threat of lawsuits in Seattle, so no wonder he loves him so much and is joining in on his laughable "Recall Sawant" sore loser effort (after the Amazon funded candidate lost last year.) The Democratic Party has a proud history of people who said that a society is defined by the care you give to society's most vulnerable - General MacArthur obviously has no such motivation, and is instead driven by a near-psychopathic and personal hatred of the aforementioned Left.

[Sir Mohamed]

I didn't go through all of this thread and local Buffalo politics, but what is the short version of why Brown lost his primary?