80th anniversary of the Operation Barbarossa

[buritobr]

On June 22nd 1941, the Axis forces invaded the USSR. The eastern european front of the WW2 was the deadliest conflict in the history of the mankind.

This video is interesting. It explains the failure of the operation without using cliches like the cold, the millions of suicide soviet soldiers, the "crazy Hitler" who didn't listen to the "competent" generals. According to this video, the nazi underestimated the soviet forces both in numbers and technology, Hitler had a misleading view that Stalin's regime would colapse when the invasion starts, the lack of cooperation between Germany and Japan played a role https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_3R-Rkn_98

[President Johnson]

Not just one of the most cruel and criminal actions in history, it was also the dumbest decision Hitler made in the course of the war. This moron thought he could fight the whole world and stand a chance of winning. And Stalin for his part was rather naive as well, by assuming Hitler would keep his word from the 1939 treaty, even when the warning signs were there. He also reacted slowly and caused more Soviet deaths.

For anyone who's interested more broadly in this, I can recommend the video from the Library of Congress below (found this yesterday in the recommendations segment). It's a talk with an American historian looking at the invasion and events of 1941, which was essentially the year Hitler lost the war.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Barbarossa had far-ranging consequences for Europe. Damage from Barbarossa went so far as to play a factor (albeit not a huge one) in the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Storr]

What I find most incredible about Barbarossa are in mind bogglingly massive number of deaths. The Soviet Union lost 27 million citizens, which was 13.7% of the pre-war population. 1 in 4 Belarusians died during the War. There's plenty to dislike about Putin's Russia, but its skepticism (or outright hostility) of the West has deep roots, with Barbarossa being a big part of it. Honestly with how much Russia has faced in its history, from Moscow being taken by Napoleon to the embarrassing collapse of the Soviet Union and subsequent decade of economic hardship, but especially Barbarossa, it's hard not to sympathize or at least understand where that deep rooted skepticism comes from.

[lfromnj]

Not just one of the most cruel and criminal actions in history, it was also the dumbest decision Hitler made in the course of the war. This moron thought he could fight the whole world and stand a chance of winning. And Stalin for his part was rather naive as well, by assuming Hitler would keep his word from the 1939 treaty, even when the warning signs were there. He also reacted slowly and caused more Soviet deaths.

Hitler easily tops the list of most evil in history of the world. However painting him as a moron at least for earlier decisions, arguably is part of the Clean Wehrmact myth with memoirs written by Nazi generals such as Guderian/Halder who didn't understand the strategic thinking of Hitler's desires for oil. After they survived they did tried to paint Hitler also as incompetent to show how they "opposed" him.Later on by say 1944 and 1945 Hitler did go borderline half insane but early on some of his most evil decisions actually had a degree of strategic thinking.

[America Needs a 13-6 Progressive SCOTUS]

Also the 81st anniversary of the Fall of France.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Not just one of the most cruel and criminal actions in history, it was also the dumbest decision Hitler made in the course of the war. This moron thought he could fight the whole world and stand a chance of winning. And Stalin for his part was rather naive as well, by assuming Hitler would keep his word from the 1939 treaty, even when the warning signs were there. He also reacted slowly and caused more Soviet deaths.

Hitler easily tops the list of most evil in history of the world. However painting him as a moron at least for earlier decisions, arguably is part of the Clean Wehrmact myth with memoirs written by Nazi generals such as Guderian/Halder who didn't understand the strategic thinking of Hitler's desires for oil. After they survived they did tried to paint Hitler also as incompetent to show how they "opposed" him.Later on by say 1944 and 1945 Hitler did go borderline half insane but early on some of his most evil decisions actually had a degree of strategic thinking.

It is true, allot of the surviving generals liked to pass off their loss as being do to Hitler’s meddling, which wasn’t that common and, in the early to mid war, not always wrong.
But, it’s hard to say that invading the USSR in the first place wasn’t titanically stupid. The thing of course being that virtually all the Wehrmacht officer corps, excepting the quartermaster’s office who pretty much gamed out exactly what was going to happen, was completely on board.

[lfromnj]

Not just one of the most cruel and criminal actions in history, it was also the dumbest decision Hitler made in the course of the war. This moron thought he could fight the whole world and stand a chance of winning. And Stalin for his part was rather naive as well, by assuming Hitler would keep his word from the 1939 treaty, even when the warning signs were there. He also reacted slowly and caused more Soviet deaths.

Hitler easily tops the list of most evil in history of the world. However painting him as a moron at least for earlier decisions, arguably is part of the Clean Wehrmact myth with memoirs written by Nazi generals such as Guderian/Halder who didn't understand the strategic thinking of Hitler's desires for oil. After they survived they did tried to paint Hitler also as incompetent to show how they "opposed" him.Later on by say 1944 and 1945 Hitler did go borderline half insane but early on some of his most evil decisions actually had a degree of strategic thinking.

It is true, allot of the surviving generals liked to pass off their loss as being do to Hitler’s meddling, which wasn’t that common and, in the early to mid war, not always wrong.
But, it’s hard to say that invading the USSR in the first place wasn’t titanically stupid. The thing of course being that virtually all the Wehrmacht officer corps, excepting the quartermaster’s office who pretty much gamed out exactly what was going to happen, was completely on board.

There really wasn't a choice. The British blockade starved Germany of any oil and they were expecting and did run out in a few months . Being dependent on the USSR for oil would have been risky and they weren't giving that much.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I have seen some pretty compelling analysis that Germany had to go to war with the Soviets in 1941, and rather than it being some mistake, was a necessary and unavoidable action by that point because of the economic situation that the Germans were in.

Kind of like Japan with regards to attacking Pearl and the European colonies in the Pacific. At a certain point it was either expand the war to acquire resources, or give up on the war and gains made thus far (for them in China, for Germany in Europe). 

[lfromnj]

I have seen some pretty compelling analysis that Germany had to go to war with the Soviets in 1941, and rather than it being some mistake, was a necessary and unavoidable action by that point because of the economic situation that the Germans were in.

Kind of like Japan with regards to attacking Pearl and the European colonies in the Pacific. At a certain point it was either expand the war to acquire resources, or give up on the war and gains made thus far (for them in China, for Germany in Europe). 

Yup the simple fact is that the Nazis and Japanese were developed industrial economies which required oil.. So the answers were either conquest  or trade . Trade was a bit unreliable along  with being against nationalistic principles of self sufficiency.  Also the US controlled most of the oil supply in the world. We basically pulled an OPEC against the Nazis and Japanese.

[buritobr]

Not just one of the most cruel and criminal actions in history, it was also the dumbest decision Hitler made in the course of the war. This moron thought he could fight the whole world and stand a chance of winning. And Stalin for his part was rather naive as well, by assuming Hitler would keep his word from the 1939 treaty, even when the warning signs were there. He also reacted slowly and caused more Soviet deaths.

Hitler easily tops the list of most evil in history of the world. However painting him as a moron at least for earlier decisions, arguably is part of the Clean Wehrmact myth with memoirs written by Nazi generals such as Guderian/Halder who didn't understand the strategic thinking of Hitler's desires for oil. After they survived they did tried to paint Hitler also as incompetent to show how they "opposed" him.Later on by say 1944 and 1945 Hitler did go borderline half insane but early on some of his most evil decisions actually had a degree of strategic thinking.

The generals wanted use all the forces to reach Moscow before the winter, while Hitler considered that taking Ukraine before was more important. Maybe, Hitler was correct. Controling Ukraine, a land rich of natural resources, could be more important than controlling Moscow. If the germans marched in a straight line to Moscow, the soviet troops in Ukraine would have survive, and they could conduct a counter strike in order to cut this line.

[LBJer]

What I find most incredible about Barbarossa are in mind bogglingly massive number of deaths. The Soviet Union lost 27 million citizens, which was 13.7% of the pre-war population. 1 in 4 Belarusians died during the War. There's plenty to dislike about Putin's Russia, but its skepticism (or outright hostility) of the West has deep roots, with Barbarossa being a big part of it. Honestly with how much Russia has faced in its history, from Moscow being taken by Napoleon to the embarrassing collapse of the Soviet Union and subsequent decade of economic hardship, but especially Barbarossa, it's hard not to sympathize or at least understand where that deep rooted skepticism comes from.

Yes.  And while I think that Putin has used WWII to fan nationalism in the present for questionable purposes, one can hardly blame Russia for having a military parade every year to celebrate its (and the rest of the Soviet Union's) victory in a war so costly, traumatic, and devastating. 

[Statilius the Epicurean]

I have seen some pretty compelling analysis that Germany had to go to war with the Soviets in 1941, and rather than it being some mistake, was a necessary and unavoidable action by that point because of the economic situation that the Germans were in.

Kind of like Japan with regards to attacking Pearl and the European colonies in the Pacific. At a certain point it was either expand the war to acquire resources, or give up on the war and gains made thus far (for them in China, for Germany in Europe).  

Yes, this is excellently laid out in Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction. Hitler and the Nazi Party had a Manichean worldview of politics as a zero-sum struggle between races for dominance. The Jewish conspiracy had controlled Anglo-American capitalism to defeat Germany in the First World War, and if Germany failed to take over Europe to establish a continental empire that could counterbalance the United States then Germans would inevitably be enslaved in the American world order. Operation Barbarossa was a desperate gamble with little chance of success, but for the Nazi leadership a total war of ever escalating gambles was the only alternative to Germany's subordination and destruction at the hands of greater powers.

I think the logic was similar for the ultranationalists in the Japanese military: they could abandon the conquest of China, but it would be a total failure in the face of American hegemony and be tantamount to allowing the United States to carve up and colonise Japan.

[(no subject)]

Hitler was a seriously disturbed human being. He was NOT an alien monster teleported to Earth for the sole purpose of causing misery and death. If we ignore Hitler’s humanity, we will never learn the lessons from his career.

[Alben Barkley]

THIS was actually the moment Hitler committed suicide. It just took another four years for him to realize it.

Here's some American pro-Stalin propaganda music to commemorate the occasion: