Catholic bishops this week will discuss if Biden qualifies for Communion.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Catholicism is a joke

Most of it is fine, it just needs a purge of much of its leadership, the far right bigots, homophobes, and pedophilia enablers and the like.

Francis is working on it, but it's going to be a multi-Pope process for sure.

Isn’t the word of God supposed to be absolute. Funny how these religions keep on changing their values in a way that conveniently makes them more appealing to modern society…

Yeah, but that's good, right? When you realize you're wrong, you have to get it right.

No more Crusades, no more haciendas, no more slavery, pedophilia is being addressed, and soon enough no more homophobia, at least officially from the Church.

If a religion asserts that their God is infallible, but then that religion’s followers decide that he/she/it actually got something wrong, then doesn’t that invalidate the entire religion?

No, because that's not what happens, anymore than the entire Constitution is invalidated when SCOTUS overrides a precedent. It's our understanding of God (or the Constitution) that changes, not God (or the Constitution).

[2952-0-0]

That's exactly what the most reactionary factions in the episcopate do want--a smaller, "purer", wholeheartedly right-wing and nationalist American Church. It suits the ideological fancies of most American journalists as well--both conservative Catholic journalists who share these bishops' views and secular liberal journalists who are hostile to the Church--which is why the USCCB can release vague draft documents with generalized, unobjectionable (to Catholics) language about "Eucharistic consistency" and rest assured that everyone from WaPo to LifeSiteNews will report them as the crass lib-owning they're not-so-secretly intended as.

But don't the types who post on the LifeSiteNews comment section also think the church hierarchy are "sissies" for not including the red baseball cap as part of their vestments?

[Badger]

That's exactly what the most reactionary factions in the episcopate do want--a smaller, "purer", wholeheartedly right-wing and nationalist American Church. It suits the ideological fancies of most American journalists as well--both conservative Catholic journalists who share these bishops' views and secular liberal journalists who are hostile to the Church--which is why the USCCB can release vague draft documents with generalized, unobjectionable (to Catholics) language about "Eucharistic consistency" and rest assured that everyone from WaPo to LifeSiteNews will report them as the crass lib-owning they're not-so-secretly intended as.

But don't the types who post on the LifeSiteNews comment section also think the church hierarchy are "sissies" for not including the red baseball cap as part of their vestments?

M e h. The type you're describing are a vocal but tiny minority. There is a substantial share of the Catholic hierarchy, and not a few of its rank-and-file parishioners, for who Nathan has hit the nail on the head in describing

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

That's exactly what the most reactionary factions in the episcopate do want--a smaller, "purer", wholeheartedly right-wing and nationalist American Church. It suits the ideological fancies of most American journalists as well--both conservative Catholic journalists who share these bishops' views and secular liberal journalists who are hostile to the Church--which is why the USCCB can release vague draft documents with generalized, unobjectionable (to Catholics) language about "Eucharistic consistency" and rest assured that everyone from WaPo to LifeSiteNews will report them as the crass lib-owning they're not-so-secretly intended as.

But don't the types who post on the LifeSiteNews comment section also think

No; no, they don't.

[MATTROSE94]

Catholicism is a joke

Battista Minola 1616 isn’t going to like this post lol.

[VBM]

Catholicism is a joke

Battista Minola 1616 isn’t going to like this post lol.

To be fair, I think that all religions are jokes to some extent, but Catholicism is particularly egregious considering that Martin Luther exposed the Catholic Church of being run by blatant grifters trying to get rich off of selling “salvation,” yet it’s still one of the most widespread religions to this day. Not to mention that a lot of the Popes, who are supposed to be the most holy and devout Catholics of their era, have proven to be some of the most ghoulish figures in history

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

Apparently Gingrich got a pass because his first wife is now dead and his second wife was herself a divorcee before marrying him.

Meanwhile the priest wanted a bribe when my grandpa went to married my (divorced) grandma. She even converted. By grandpa told the priest to (effectively? literally? Not sure) eff himself and they got married in Vegas.

[vitoNova]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

[VBM]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I see the usual suspects are hard at work making the whackos on the Catholic far-right seem like thoughtful and reasonable people by comparison with their cartoonishly ignorant takes on Christian theology. inb4 somebody posts "um actually, isn't taking communion a form of cannibalism?"

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

Look, I know you are trigging to trigger people with the too coolatheist schtick, high school’s fun, and I’m not going to waste breath trying to explain why you are wrong so we can get another round of Victorian folktales about the Papists as told by edgelords.
But look, the sacrament of communion is fundamental to being part of the Catholic community.  That presumably matters to Joe Biden and a radical front within the American Church hierarchy is attempting to remove him from his religious community.
Can you not get why that is bad and not try to make everything about your sophomore level takes on religion?

[VBM]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless.  

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

Look, I know you are trigging to trigger people with the too coolatheist schtick, high school’s fun, and I’m not going to waste breath trying to explain why you are wrong so we can get another round of Victorian folktales about the Papists as told by edgelords.
But look, the sacrament of communion is fundamental to being part of the Catholic community.  That presumably matters to Joe Biden and a radical front within the American Church hierarchy is attempting to remove him from his religious community.
Can you not get why that is bad and not try to make everything about your sophomore level takes on religion?

Man it really be nice if I could for one time in a religious argument actually not have to be subjected to this emotionally-driven drivel. What in my post was factually wrong? You folks have nothing but the classic “You’re just trying to be edgy!” deflection, and it’s getting rather tiring having to be subject to this same non-argument all the time. If I were to criticize some obviously bizarre and illogical practice committed by some small-scale religion like Scientology, many of you who look at my post with disgust would instead be in complete agreement, but because Catholicism just so happens to be much more widely practiced by a lot more people, we have to erroneously pretend like that makes Catholicism’s bizarre practices somehow more legitimate even though they’re equally as devoid of facts and logic as Scientology’s odd, superstitious practices.

Just explain to me how it logically makes sense for an organization prone to corruption and imperfection, due to it being run by human being, to be able to forcibly sour your relationship with God. What if the church excommunicates you for reasons that God would disagree with? Does he still punish you anyways for not taking part in communion?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I know that he isn't a Catholic. The broader point I was making is that he's much more deserving of criticism from religious figures than Biden is.

That's a valid point, but I don't think it has much bearing on the narrower question of whether Biden should be allowed to receive communion.

My main view on the latter is that it's a matter best kept between a politician and his priest. If a higher authority within the church finds it necessary to hold forth on the subject, so be it, but that's not anyone else's concern. It's disgusting that this is covered as a matter to which public opinion has any relevance.

It’s not about public opinion in the abstract having any bearing on this issue. It’s about public opinion from the people who are correct having any bearing on the issue.

[emailking]

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

A thought crime isn't a sin in Catholicism. However, having or helping with an abortion definitely is and a mortal one. You could still go to heaven if you ask for forgiveness before you die. Do most Catholics actually believe that? I don't know, most of them don't know even know those details from my experience. But the Church they belong to certainly believes this.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Catholicism is a joke

Battista Minola 1616 isn’t going to like this post lol.

To be fair, I think that all religions are jokes to some extent, but Catholicism is particularly egregious considering that Martin Luther exposed the Catholic Church of being run by blatant grifters trying to get rich off of selling “salvation,” yet it’s still one of the most widespread religions to this day. Not to mention that a lot of the Popes, who are supposed to be the most holy and devout Catholics of their era, have proven to be some of the most ghoulish figures in history

So this post is what I am talking about when I say you’re just parroting Victorian folklore about the nasty papists.
First off, Martin Luther’s 95 Theses was him getting into a political argument between some princes, both episcopal and secular, over letters of indulgence (note indulgences themselves, letters confirming the same) the HRE to try to score a following and get a place in the Saxon court to protect him when he started his real work. He even spends a good portion saying that the letters undermine practices, notably mass for the dead and Reconcilliation, that he outright rejected anyway. Anyway, the whole thing was an intra-Catholic controversy and eventually settled without the need to change at that point 15 centuries of doctrine because one backwater priest got a bright idea, it’s entirely immaterial. Luther’s real project that he left the Church and kickstarted the Reformation was spreading his novel doctrine of Sole Fide, which in my opinion undermines the whole idea of Christian morality, but that’s really beside the point. Also driving the Jews from Europe. He was really big on that. Anyway, the point is that neither the fact that Martin Luther weighed in on intra-Church policy nor started his own religion based on some new ideas he invented destroys the structure of Catholicism.

Now
Name one? Who are you referring to exactly? Alexander VI gets slandered the most because he had a mistress, which yes was breaking his priestly vows but something virtually every other man of his culture, that being Italian nobility, did. It’s not something that is to be celebrated, but also doesn’t make him the monster of Protestant propaganda turned stunningly persistent myth. Anyway I can’t think of anyone that meets the history’s greatest monster criteria needed to support a claim like this.

But this brings me to a larger point. The Pope is a) a priest and b) the direct successor of St. Peter as Bishop of Rome and therefore c) responsible for maintaining Church hierarchy and magisterial teaching. Yes that makes him the highest authority on spiritual matter within the Church and pronouncements made by the Pontiff explicitly about faith or moral teachings on behalf of the entire Church with the Counsel of Bishops are considered to be without doctrinal error. Actually read that last part again, because that is the doctrine of Papal Infallibility.
It doesn’t make him not a man or superhuman and it doesn’t mean that if you prove John XIV was a real jerk the whole Church crumbles.

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

It’s hard to believe that you aren’t deliberately trying to read my posts in the most uncharitable fashion possible. The Eucharist is about the physical communion with God. You can think it’s silly or wrong, but this is beside the point. This is what I believe, but this isn’t about me either. This is presumably what Mr. Biden believes and denying him participation in the same denies him whole participation in his religious community. It’s not about going to hell, he could still go to mass and receive Reconciliation and so forth and I presume being denied communion for specious reasons would put one in a category similar to the unchurched, this is about his spiritual identity as a member of the living body of Jesus Christ on earth. You don’t have to believe that for purposes of this discussion, just understand that that might be important to him. 

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

Look, I know you are trigging to trigger people with the too coolatheist schtick, high school’s fun, and I’m not going to waste breath trying to explain why you are wrong so we can get another round of Victorian folktales about the Papists as told by edgelords.
But look, the sacrament of communion is fundamental to being part of the Catholic community.  That presumably matters to Joe Biden and a radical front within the American Church hierarchy is attempting to remove him from his religious community.
Can you not get why that is bad and not try to make everything about your sophomore level takes on religion?

Man it really be nice if I could for one time in a religious argument actually not have to be subjected to this emotionally-driven drivel. What in my post was factually wrong? You folks have nothing but the classic “You’re just trying to be edgy!” deflection, and it’s getting rather tiring having to be subject to this same non-argument all the time. If I were to criticize some obviously bizarre and illogical practice committed by some small-scale religion like Scientology, many of you who look at my post with disgust would instead be in complete agreement, but because Catholicism just so happens to be much more widely practiced by a lot more people, we have to erroneously pretend like that makes Catholicism’s bizarre practices somehow more legitimate even though they’re equally as devoid of facts and logic as Scientology’s odd, superstitious practices.

Just explain to me how it logically makes sense for an organization prone to corruption and imperfection, due to it being run by human being, to be able to forcibly sour your relationship with God. What if the church excommunicates you for reasons that God would disagree with? Does he still punish you anyways for not taking part in communion?

People react to your posts that way because your reaction to the news story was ‘lol Biden shouldn’t be Catholic, religion is dumb’, essentially willfully ignoring the actual point of the story and trying to drag us off into your rant about religion.
Scientology was a bad choice, because people’s objections are largely about it being a personality cult cum multi-level marketing scheme. And before you say it, show me the reams upon reams of scholarly Scientologist theological treatises, great Scientologist universities, the Scientologist ascetics, the Scientologist missions feeding and educating developing world villages, or the living community of Scientologists outside of their compounds, that’s the difference.
And you use facts and logic like buzzwords, so far the only fact you’ve supplied is that Martin Luther, umm, existed and therefore Catholicism is false. By your definition, I could say Erasmus called him a dingbat, and it’s a devastating deployment of historical fact.
You logic is entirely built on faulty presumptions, that religious is driven solely by fear of hell, that religious figures are demigods, that a single philosopher going nuh-uh disproves an entire system of belief. And most of all, Christianity and it’s implications, even ignoring the early Church, has been grappled with by philosophers for going on 1,700 years, with a good millennia where theology was considered the single highest and most important academic study in the Western world. Do you really think some googling is going to get you a question no one has ever thought of?

Anyway, in the case you bring up, being denied full participation would presumably put you in a similar category to the unchurched, that is those who have never had the opportunity to join the Church and thus the failing would be on the community and not yourself and you wouldn’t be responsible for it. That doesn’t mean it’s not wrong, full participation is an important part of spiritual life and something he is entitled to if he is living in accordance with Catholic teachings. Being denied a sacrament is a big deal because he’s being denied the sacrament itself, and the Eucharist is among the most central to Catholic practice, not because he’s being condemned to hell necessarily.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

This isn't 2004 when Pope John Paul whom was a Saint denied Communion to Kerry, the Wrld is more accepting towards Secular Catholics like the Irish are than before.

John Paul era, it was a detriment to be LGBt or Pro choice now it's acceptable

[MATTROSE94]

Catholicism is a joke

Battista Minola 1616 isn’t going to like this post lol.

To be fair, I think that all religions are jokes to some extent, but Catholicism is particularly egregious considering that Martin Luther exposed the Catholic Church of being run by blatant grifters trying to get rich off of selling “salvation,” yet it’s still one of the most widespread religions to this day. Not to mention that a lot of the Popes, who are supposed to be the most holy and devout Catholics of their era, have proven to be some of the most ghoulish figures in history

I agree. I have some problems with the politics of the Catholic Church in the US as well, especially with Catholic leaders such as Timothy Michael Dolan, Jesse Romero, Raymond Arroyo, James Altman, and Frank Pavone.

Here’s in an article talking about how the rhetoric Catholic leaders played a role in the January 6 Insurrection:
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2021/01/12/capitol-riot-congress-trump-catholic-bishops-james-martin-239697

[LabourJersey]

If I understand this correctly, if the Bishops vote to deny Biden & other pro-choice Catholic politicians, this wouldn't really affect things? So long that the current Washington Bishop is around, since he said Biden will still receive communion?

Anyway I was checking in on the bishops debate yesterday and it's kind of shocking how...blatant they were in this being against Biden and not just politicians in general.

I know this has been litigated on this forum many times, but it really does seem like a decision of this nature would go down more easily if they at least broadened the list of reasons for being denied to include items like cruel anti-refugee policies, etc. Letting Bill Barr or Greg Abbott receive communion, in spite of their ordering of execution/general immoral acts in office, while denying Biden is such an absurdly bad look. I would have thought that even these out-of-touch bishops would recognize it, but I'm clearly wrong.

[Calthrina950]

If I understand this correctly, if the Bishops vote to deny Biden & other pro-choice Catholic politicians, this wouldn't really affect things? So long that the current Washington Bishop is around, since he said Biden will still receive communion?

Anyway I was checking in on the bishops debate yesterday and it's kind of shocking how...blatant they were in this being against Biden and not just politicians in general.

I know this has been litigated on this forum many times, but it really does seem like a decision of this nature would go down more easily if they at least broadened the list of reasons for being denied to include items like cruel anti-refugee policies, etc. Letting Bill Barr or Greg Abbott receive communion, in spite of their ordering of execution/general immoral acts in office, while denying Biden is such an absurdly bad look. I would have though even the very-out-of-touch bishops would recognize, but I'm clearly wrong.

I saw a report on CBS This Morning talking about this, and they mentioned the Archbishop of San Francisco (Nancy Pelosi's home diocese), who is ardently pro-life and has been pushing for the Church to take harsher measures against pro-choice Catholic Democrats for years. San Francisco is one of the most socially liberal cities in the United States, and it has a Catholic prelate who diverges from those beliefs.

[7,052,770]

I know this has been litigated on this forum many times, but it really does seem like a decision of this nature would go down more easily if they at least broadened the list of reasons for being denied to include items like cruel anti-refugee policies, etc. Letting Bill Barr or Greg Abbott receive communion, in spite of their ordering of execution/general immoral acts in office, while denying Biden is such an absurdly bad look. I would have thought that even these out-of-touch bishops would recognize it, but I'm clearly wrong.

One problem is that Catholic culture generally frowns upon telling priests and bishops that they're wrong. So these delusional creeps might honestly have no idea how out of the mainstream they are.

[pppolitics]

U.S. Catholic bishops overwhelmingly approved the drafting of a “teaching document” that many of them hope will rebuke Catholic politicians, including President Joe Biden, for receiving Communion despite their support for abortion rights.

The result of the vote — 168 in favor and 55 against — was announced Friday near the end of a three-day meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that was held virtually.

The bishops had cast their votes privately on Thursday after nearly three hours of impassioned debate.

Supporters of the measure said a strong rebuke of Biden was needed because of his recent actions protecting and expanding abortion access, while opponents warned that such action would portray the bishops as a partisan force during a time of bitter political divisions across the country.

[...]

Source: https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-government-and-politics-religion-ea0179cd6c8eddbf66693a7e2b28e2da

[Xeuma]

The bishops, for better or worse, are the teachers of the faith Biden says he is devoted to. That is simply how the Catholic faith works. The Church has been resolute on abortion since the beginning, so if a politician is not willing to follow that as they govern, why is the Church not justified in taking remedial action? It is rather shocking how many people have an opinion on an internal affair between certain politicians and their faith, especially those who are not Catholic. How does this affect you? Why are all these progressives up in arms?

[Xeuma]

Weird how people attach significance to something that is absolutely completely meaningless. 

Receiving Communion is fundamental to practicing Catholicism. You can choose to dismiss what you like, but to call being cut off from one’s religion meaningless is a bit much.

Do Catholics actually believe they will be punished by God if some obviously corrupt and clownish church decides to cancel you for having political beliefs they don’t like and refuses to let you eat bread and drink wine at the church? If so, I don’t see how you can legitimately argue that the Catholic God isn’t a psychopathic HP if he decides to make you experience eternal torture in Hell for such a dumb reason. I’m sorry if this is offensive, but this insanity makes the latest Qanon drivel sound  scholarly

Look, I know you are trigging to trigger people with the too coolatheist schtick, high school’s fun, and I’m not going to waste breath trying to explain why you are wrong so we can get another round of Victorian folktales about the Papists as told by edgelords.
But look, the sacrament of communion is fundamental to being part of the Catholic community.  That presumably matters to Joe Biden and a radical front within the American Church hierarchy is attempting to remove him from his religious community.
Can you not get why that is bad and not try to make everything about your sophomore level takes on religion?

There is nothing radical about basic, basic, basic moral theology and taking steps to ensure that Catholics understand the importance of it.

[RI]

U.S. Catholic bishops overwhelmingly approved the drafting of a “teaching document” that many of them hope will rebuke Catholic politicians, including President Joe Biden, for receiving Communion despite their support for abortion rights.

The result of the vote — 168 in favor and 55 against — was announced Friday near the end of a three-day meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that was held virtually.

The bishops had cast their votes privately on Thursday after nearly three hours of impassioned debate.

Supporters of the measure said a strong rebuke of Biden was needed because of his recent actions protecting and expanding abortion access, while opponents warned that such action would portray the bishops as a partisan force during a time of bitter political divisions across the country.

[...]

Source: AP

Good.