Are fandoms religion substitutes?
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Author Topic: Are fandoms religion substitutes?  (Read 1088 times)
wimp
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« on: June 15, 2021, 11:49:54 AM »
« edited: June 15, 2021, 12:16:08 PM by stupid »

I'm not trying to generalize at all, but a lot of the more vocal atheists and agnostics I see online, especially on places like Reddit, seem to be into fictional worlds like Star Trek, or Lord of the Rings, or My Little Pony or what not, or if not into fiction into things like sports fandom. I know that theists can be into this too, but it makes me wonder if energy that used to be spent pouring into holy texts is now spent on nerdy trivia.

A lot of them definitely fill the void of community.
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Farmlands
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2021, 12:01:21 PM »

I do feel like there's more of a need of a community in the absence of religious meetings. I also wish sometimes I had that kind of personal weekly gathering among similar-minded people, like most of my Catholic friends do. Still, the two things are obviously not in the same league.
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Nathan
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2021, 01:04:23 PM »

Some of the more egregiously idiotic people on Tumblr and/or the bird app would submit that religion is a fandom substitute.
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2021, 01:12:20 PM »

Some of the more egregiously idiotic people on Tumblr and/or the bird app would submit that religion is a fandom substitute.

In the brief time that I spent on Tumblr in the latter half of 2014 I saw this argument far too many times, and even as someone just barely moving away from her hardcore New Atheist background at that time it was pretty offensive to see the adolescent fixations of people my age on 90s animation compared to millennia of tradition and ritual, in the same way that a handful of years earlier the adolescents-and-classical-Mediterranean-mythology subgenre of YA fiction struck me as a bit disrespectful towards faiths that were once similarly central to much of human society and experience. It's the sort of argument that one could imagine a bizarro-world Rose Twitter version of John Dule making, with the tea and nail polish emojis at the end of it.
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2021, 02:54:32 PM »

Maybe, but it's a pale imitation at best so long as they don't subject thousands of children to abuse or behead those who disagree with them.
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2021, 03:05:28 PM »

Maybe, but it's a pale imitation at best so long as they don't subject thousands of children to abuse or behead those who disagree with them.

The average Tumblr or Twitter discourse over fandom topics might surprise you, then.
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Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2021, 07:42:40 PM »

Maybe, but it's a pale imitation at best so long as they don't subject thousands of children to abuse or behead those who disagree with them.

The average Tumblr or Twitter discourse over fandom topics might surprise you, then.

DO NOT INTERACT IF YOU LIKE IRREDEEMABLE MEDIA LIKE [RANDOM MID-2010S KIDS' CARTOON I'VE NEVER HEARD OF]
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2021, 08:10:18 PM »

Fandoms are myth substitutes and atheists often perceive religion as a myth they don't like.
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Averroës Nix
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2021, 10:56:08 PM »
« Edited: June 15, 2021, 11:00:04 PM by Averroës Nix »

    I'm not trying to generalize at all, but a lot of the more vocal atheists and agnostics I see online, especially on places like Reddit

    This is an observation about Reddit users as much as one about atheists and agnostics, and my suspicion is that it holds true for people of any creed who choose to be active on that platform. I don't think that religious people are any less likely to be interested in fandom culture once you account for age and a couple of other confounders.

    The interesting variation might be in which fandoms tend to attract different religious backgrounds. I thought it would be interesting to see which brands and "franchises" were most disproportionately followed by users of religious subreddits, so I checked. I'm sure that I missed a bunch  that I didn't recognize, and I'm not exactly sure which of these are the type to generate "fandoms" but here is what I found:

    r/atheism: The Walking Dead, Dr. Who, Rick and Morty, The Expanse, Stargate, Star Trek, Subaru

    r/christianity: A Song of Ice and Fire, Breaking Bad, Grey's Anatomy, The Office, The Elder Scrolls, The Sims

    r/truechristian: Spiderman, Diablo, The Office, Lord of the Rings, Warhammer

    r/catholicism: Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Star Wars, The Sopranos

    r/islam: The Elder Scrolls, Spiderman, Tesla, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Naruto



    Quick post-script, as long as I'm writing this. The related subreddits for r/Christianity reveal a base of users who - in addition to religion - are more likely to be interested in topics such as:

    • Conspiracy theories
    • Jordan Peterson
    • Right-wing and moderate politics
    • Compulsive masturbation
    • Mental health
    • Music
    • Marriage and dating

    The list for r/atheism includes the follow topics:

    • Left-wing politics
    • Dislike of children
    • Sexual identity and fetishes
    • Dislike of law enforcement
    • Guns
    • Gaming
    • Sam Harris

    Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]
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    Samof94
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    « Reply #9 on: June 19, 2021, 06:42:45 AM »

      Quote from: stupid on June 15, 2021, 11:49:54 AMI'm not trying to generalize at all, but a lot of the more vocal atheists and agnostics I see online, especially on places like RedditThis is an observation about Reddit users as much as one about atheists and agnostics, and my suspicion is that it holds true for people of any creed who choose to be active on that platform. I don't think that religious people are any less likely to be interested in fandom culture once you account for age and a couple of other confounders. The interesting variation might be in which fandoms tend to attract different religious backgrounds. I thought it would be interesting to see which brands and "franchises" were most disproportionately followed by users of religious subreddits, so I checked. I'm sure that I missed a bunch  that I didn't recognize, and I'm not exactly sure which of these are the type to generate "fandoms" but here is what I found:r/atheism: The Walking Dead, Dr. Who, Rick and Morty, The Expanse, Stargate, Star Trek, Subarur/christianity: A Song of Ice and Fire, Breaking Bad, Grey's Anatomy, The Office, The Elder Scrolls, The Simsr/truechristian: Spiderman, Diablo, The Office, Lord of the Rings, Warhammerr/catholicism: Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Star Wars, The Sopranosr/islam: The Elder Scrolls, Spiderman, Tesla, Neon Genesis Evangelion, NarutoQuick post-script, as long as I'm writing this. The related subreddits for r/Christianity reveal a base of users who - in addition to religion - are more likely to be interested in topics such as:
    • Conspiracy theories
    • Jordan Peterson
    • Right-wing and moderate politics
    • Compulsive masturbation
    • Mental health
    • Music
    • Marriage and dating
    The list for r/atheism includes the follow topics:
    • Left-wing politics
    • Dislike of children
    • Sexual identity and fetishes
    • Dislike of law enforcement
    • Guns
    • Gaming
    • Sam Harris
    Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]
    Where’s Judaism?
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    Alben Barkley
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    « Reply #10 on: June 19, 2021, 12:19:05 PM »

      I'm not trying to generalize at all, but a lot of the more vocal atheists and agnostics I see online, especially on places like Reddit

      This is an observation about Reddit users as much as one about atheists and agnostics, and my suspicion is that it holds true for people of any creed who choose to be active on that platform. I don't think that religious people are any less likely to be interested in fandom culture once you account for age and a couple of other confounders.

      The interesting variation might be in which fandoms tend to attract different religious backgrounds. I thought it would be interesting to see which brands and "franchises" were most disproportionately followed by users of religious subreddits, so I checked. I'm sure that I missed a bunch  that I didn't recognize, and I'm not exactly sure which of these are the type to generate "fandoms" but here is what I found:

      r/atheism: The Walking Dead, Dr. Who, Rick and Morty, The Expanse, Stargate, Star Trek, Subaru

      r/christianity: A Song of Ice and Fire, Breaking Bad, Grey's Anatomy, The Office, The Elder Scrolls, The Sims

      r/truechristian: Spiderman, Diablo, The Office, Lord of the Rings, Warhammer

      r/catholicism: Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Star Wars, The Sopranos

      r/islam: The Elder Scrolls, Spiderman, Tesla, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Naruto



      Quick post-script, as long as I'm writing this. The related subreddits for r/Christianity reveal a base of users who - in addition to religion - are more likely to be interested in topics such as:

      • Conspiracy theories
      • Jordan Peterson
      • Right-wing and moderate politics
      • Compulsive masturbation
      • Mental health
      • Music
      • Marriage and dating

      The list for r/atheism includes the follow topics:

      • Left-wing politics
      • Dislike of children
      • Sexual identity and fetishes
      • Dislike of law enforcement
      • Guns
      • Gaming
      • Sam Harris

      Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]

      SO MANY STEREOTYPES confirmed. Especially for the atheists but damn.
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      Kingpoleon
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      « Reply #11 on: June 19, 2021, 02:59:39 PM »

      Having read some religious studies journals, it’s not uncommon for someone in the field to say “Is this a religion?” and then publish papers on it.
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      Nathan
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      « Reply #12 on: June 20, 2021, 01:18:50 AM »
      « Edited: June 20, 2021, 01:32:26 AM by MR. NAPHTHALI BENNETT »

        Quote from: stupid on June 15, 2021, 11:49:54 AMI'm not trying to generalize at all, but a lot of the more vocal atheists and agnostics I see online, especially on places like RedditThis is an observation about Reddit users as much as one about atheists and agnostics, and my suspicion is that it holds true for people of any creed who choose to be active on that platform. I don't think that religious people are any less likely to be interested in fandom culture once you account for age and a couple of other confounders. The interesting variation might be in which fandoms tend to attract different religious backgrounds. I thought it would be interesting to see which brands and "franchises" were most disproportionately followed by users of religious subreddits, so I checked. I'm sure that I missed a bunch  that I didn't recognize, and I'm not exactly sure which of these are the type to generate "fandoms" but here is what I found:r/atheism: The Walking Dead, Dr. Who, Rick and Morty, The Expanse, Stargate, Star Trek, Subarur/christianity: A Song of Ice and Fire, Breaking Bad, Grey's Anatomy, The Office, The Elder Scrolls, The Simsr/truechristian: Spiderman, Diablo, The Office, Lord of the Rings, Warhammerr/catholicism: Lord of the Rings, A Song of Ice and Fire, Star Wars, The Sopranosr/islam: The Elder Scrolls, Spiderman, Tesla, Neon Genesis Evangelion, NarutoQuick post-script, as long as I'm writing this. The related subreddits for r/Christianity reveal a base of users who - in addition to religion - are more likely to be interested in topics such as:
      • Conspiracy theories
      • Jordan Peterson
      • Right-wing and moderate politics
      • Compulsive masturbation
      • Mental health
      • Music
      • Marriage and dating
      The list for r/atheism includes the follow topics:
      • Left-wing politics
      • Dislike of children
      • Sexual identity and fetishes
      • Dislike of law enforcement
      • Guns
      • Gaming
      • Sam Harris
      Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]
      Where’s Judaism?

      I did it for r/judaism and topics Reddit Jews are interested in include:
      • Israel
      • New York City
      • Mood disorders
      • Books
      • Crocheting
      • Women's fashion
      • Military affairs

      For good measure, I threw in r/buddhism and got:
      • Sam Harris
      • Northern California
      • Polyamory
      • Hallucinogenic drugs
      • Veganism
      • Avatar: The Last Airbender
      • Skiing

      I don't think the racial or immigration-status demographics of Reddit's Buddhist contingent will be particularly mysterious to anyone given these overlaps.
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      afleitch
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      « Reply #13 on: June 20, 2021, 05:11:16 AM »
      « Edited: June 20, 2021, 05:18:59 AM by afleitch »

      This is very indicative of Reddit and being O N L I N E though even Reddit isn't what it was a few years ago. If you do it for 'pro-life' you get;

      Catholicism
      Conservatism
      Leftcantmeme
      Steven Crowder
      Progun
      Walkaway movement.

      Which is...choice. And as much as I have a visceral dislike of US Pro-Life idpol, I refuse to believe it's that bad.

      It does have some interesting uses though, playing about with it, you also find a lot of overlap between LGBT reddits and neurodiversity reddits. Pagans like witches, cross stitching and dog training.

      Humanism gives

      Magic the Gathering
      Jungian typology
      Ex Jehovah's Witnesses
      Anarchism
      Wholesome gays

      Which is quite the mixed bag!

      On actual fandoms, Doctor Who links mostly to other fandoms. As does Star Trek. Drag Race less so, with a few make up subs but strongly to gay cis male subs.
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      Samof94
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      « Reply #14 on: June 20, 2021, 06:37:55 AM »

      This is very indicative of Reddit and being O N L I N E though even Reddit isn't what it was a few years ago. If you do it for 'pro-life' you get;

      Catholicism
      Conservatism
      Leftcantmeme
      Steven Crowder
      Progun
      Walkaway movement.

      Which is...choice. And as much as I have a visceral dislike of US Pro-Life idpol, I refuse to believe it's that bad.

      It does have some interesting uses though, playing about with it, you also find a lot of overlap between LGBT reddits and neurodiversity reddits. Pagans like witches, cross stitching and dog training.

      Humanism gives

      Magic the Gathering
      Jungian typology
      Ex Jehovah's Witnesses
      Anarchism
      Wholesome gays

      Which is quite the mixed bag!

      On actual fandoms, Doctor Who links mostly to other fandoms. As does Star Trek. Drag Race less so, with a few make up subs but strongly to gay cis male subs.
      Those “pro life” types aren’t really “pro life” at all. Especially the fringe movement that involves those who literally kill people to ”save the babies”
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      afleitch
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      « Reply #15 on: June 20, 2021, 07:04:59 AM »

      This is very indicative of Reddit and being O N L I N E though even Reddit isn't what it was a few years ago. If you do it for 'pro-life' you get;

      Catholicism
      Conservatism
      Leftcantmeme
      Steven Crowder
      Progun
      Walkaway movement.

      Which is...choice. And as much as I have a visceral dislike of US Pro-Life idpol, I refuse to believe it's that bad.

      It does have some interesting uses though, playing about with it, you also find a lot of overlap between LGBT reddits and neurodiversity reddits. Pagans like witches, cross stitching and dog training.

      Humanism gives

      Magic the Gathering
      Jungian typology
      Ex Jehovah's Witnesses
      Anarchism
      Wholesome gays

      Which is quite the mixed bag!

      On actual fandoms, Doctor Who links mostly to other fandoms. As does Star Trek. Drag Race less so, with a few make up subs but strongly to gay cis male subs.
      Those “pro life” types aren’t really “pro life” at all. Especially the fringe movement that involves those who literally kill people to ”save the babies”

      That's what I meant. Some platforms seem representative of groups and interests (skewed young) while at the same time hosting some groups that aren't actually representative of that group as a whole. Tumblr was the same way. And Twitter will be now and forever!
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      Samof94
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      « Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 07:25:44 AM »

      This is very indicative of Reddit and being O N L I N E though even Reddit isn't what it was a few years ago. If you do it for 'pro-life' you get;

      Catholicism
      Conservatism
      Leftcantmeme
      Steven Crowder
      Progun
      Walkaway movement.

      Which is...choice. And as much as I have a visceral dislike of US Pro-Life idpol, I refuse to believe it's that bad.

      It does have some interesting uses though, playing about with it, you also find a lot of overlap between LGBT reddits and neurodiversity reddits. Pagans like witches, cross stitching and dog training.

      Humanism gives

      Magic the Gathering
      Jungian typology
      Ex Jehovah's Witnesses
      Anarchism
      Wholesome gays

      Which is quite the mixed bag!

      On actual fandoms, Doctor Who links mostly to other fandoms. As does Star Trek. Drag Race less so, with a few make up subs but strongly to gay cis male subs.
      Those “pro life” types aren’t really “pro life” at all. Especially the fringe movement that involves those who literally kill people to ”save the babies”

      That's what I meant. Some platforms seem representative of groups and interests (skewed young) while at the same time hosting some groups that aren't actually representative of that group as a whole. Tumblr was the same way. And Twitter will be now and forever!
      Like someone who thinks Castro was good for Cuba?
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      « Reply #17 on: June 21, 2021, 08:58:27 AM »

      No. Were fraternal organizations religion substitutes? How about neighborhood associations? What you may be noticing is that they're all social organizations. That's the social aspect at least. On following the canon of a certain piece of media, more people may have more free time to pursue that now that discrimination against the irreligious has declined to a point where it's normal not to go to church, but I wouldn't call it a substitute. It's not the same appeal as following religious texts, which theoretically address anxieties over the meaning of life and promote virtues.

      Unless you're super religious, and anything that doesn't have religion in it is a distraction from God (in which case what are you doing here?), then no.
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      « Reply #18 on: June 21, 2021, 09:12:44 AM »

      It's not the same appeal as following religious texts, which theoretically address anxieties over the meaning of life and promote virtues.

      This is also the purpose of many secular works of fiction, no? It makes sense that folk might develop similar attachments to those works and model parts of themselves on it (writing smut about it is another matter, though). People have an intrinsic urge to identify with aspects of the world at large greater than themselves, and it's from that impulse that we have totems, gods in human forms, and groups centered around interests like these, especially given the contemporary culture of intimately identifying with fictional characters.

      I'm not trying to equate fandom and religion by any means, but there are clearly common aspects of the human psyche that are involved in both.
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      « Reply #19 on: June 21, 2021, 09:21:28 AM »

      This is also the purpose of many secular works of fiction, no? It makes sense that folk might develop similar attachments to those works and model parts of themselves on it (writing smut about it is another matter, though). People have an intrinsic urge to identify with aspects of the world at large greater than themselves, and it's from that impulse that we have totems, gods in human forms, and groups centered around interests like these, especially given the contemporary culture of intimately identifying with fictional characters.

      Maybe for some people, but as a pretty intense fan fic and fan art maker myself, not really. It's catharsis and wish fulfillment.
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      « Reply #20 on: June 21, 2021, 09:26:10 AM »

      This is also the purpose of many secular works of fiction, no? It makes sense that folk might develop similar attachments to those works and model parts of themselves on it (writing smut about it is another matter, though). People have an intrinsic urge to identify with aspects of the world at large greater than themselves, and it's from that impulse that we have totems, gods in human forms, and groups centered around interests like these, especially given the contemporary culture of intimately identifying with fictional characters.

      Maybe for some people, but as a pretty intense fan fic and fan art maker myself, not really. It's catharsis and wish fulfillment.

      Faith is also a source of "catharsis and wish fulfillment" for many people, myself included, but I don't want to stretch this comparison beyond its usefulness.
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      « Reply #21 on: June 21, 2021, 09:30:55 AM »

      Faith is also a source of "catharsis and wish fulfillment" for many people, myself included, but I don't want to stretch this comparison beyond its usefulness.

      It sounds like this is such a broad comparison that anything could be considered a religion substitute.
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      « Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 09:36:10 AM »

      Faith is also a source of "catharsis and wish fulfillment" for many people, myself included, but I don't want to stretch this comparison beyond its usefulness.

      It sounds like this is such a broad comparison that anything could be considered a religion substitute.

      That's a central problem of the comparison as originally posited in this thread, yes. I still think there's modest merit in it, but only in the very broad sense that I was describing.
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      « Reply #23 on: June 21, 2021, 10:08:27 AM »

        Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]

        r/anime_titties has been for quite a while a subreddit about geopolitics hilariously enough.
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        « Reply #24 on: June 21, 2021, 03:55:17 PM »

          Didn't bother with the others but I'll note that "r/anime_titties" ranked highly for disproportionate overlap with both r/islam and r/catholicism.[/list]

          r/anime_titties has been for quite a while a subreddit about geopolitics hilariously enough.

          Speaking of which, I ran some of the individual Star Trek shows and there's a VERY strong correlation between r/DeepSpaceNine and r/geopolitics, unsurprisingly given DS9's themes and emphases. There's also some overlap with antireligious subreddits, which is dismaying but unsurprising given the demographics of Reddit and how much straight male Trekkies tend to dislike Kira Nerys, DS9's most religious character.
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