Israel General Discussion: Dawn of the Post-Netanyahu Era

[(no subject)]

And don’t forget that the Palestinian Arabs voided the 1947 UN Partition Plan by embarking on their war of wanna-be genocide against the Jewish community of the British Mandate. Lest anyone be inclined to challenge this assertion, we refer them to the words of the Arab League Secretary General Azzam Pasha as published just a few weeks before the UN partition vote in the Egyptian newspaper Akhbar al-Yom.

The creation of a Jewish state, warned Pasha, ‘will lead to a war of extermination and momentous massacre that will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.’ If there’s a singular salient lesson to be learned from 20th century Jewish history, it’s that if people say they intend to kill you, it’s wise to take them seriously.

[CumbrianLefty]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

[Velasco]

We can discuss the Palestinian Nakba if you please. The creation of a Jewish majority within the territories allocated to Usrael in the partition plan was possible due to a camoaign of ethnic cleansing and intimidation. The partition of the Mandatory Palestine was an imposition of the Zionist movement, while the role of teerorist militias like Irgun was key in the subsequent war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

 The 1948 Palestinian exodus occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war. The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba, in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed and others subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names, and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.  

The precise number of refugees, many of whom settled in refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute but around 80% of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes. About 250,000–300,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the Israeli Declaration of Independence in May 1948, a fact which was named as a casus belli for the entry of the Arab League into the country, sparking the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre, which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes, collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders, and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control (...)

The history of the Palestinian exodus is closely tied to the events of the war in Palestine, which lasted from 1947 to 1949, and to the political events preceding it. In September 1949, the United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine estimated 711,000 Palestinian refugees existed outside Israel, with about one-quarter of the estimated 160,000 Palestinian Arabs remaining in Israel as "internal refugees".

These "ibternal refugees " or  "Arabs of 1948" were confined in "ghettos" and "concentration camos" by the Israeli government, anticipating a model of relationship that ww can see in the West Bank (incl East Jerusalem) and Gaza nowadays

https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/.premium-when-israel-placed-arabs-in-ghettos-fenced-by-barbed-wire-1.8877340

 The curfew and lockdown imposed in Israel during the coronavirus epidemic may have begun to feel like a faded memory, but few know that many of the country’s citizens endured a similar situation in the past. Then, however, the approach was quite aggressive, with the use of barbed-wire fences and the demarcation of zones that were called ghettos and concentration camps.

The imposition of a curfew and the sequestration of the country’s Arabs began immediately after Israeli forces, during the 1948 War of Independence, conquered cities that were either Arab or mixed (Arab-Jewish) in their makeup. The battles left thousands of urban Arab residents under Jewish control. The majority of the Arabs did not take an active part in the war, and those who remained in the cities constituted a small fraction of a defeated population – weak, without representation and frightened. The long months following the conquest of the cities in mid-1948 were a test in miniature of the future relations of the two peoples who shared the country.

In Haifa, which was conquered in April 1948, no more than 3,500 Arabs remained out of a population of close to 70,000 Arabs that had resided there a short time before. Jaffa, which surrendered to the Jewish forces on May 13, had a similar prewar Arab population, of whom only 4,000 were left. Of the 35,000 residents of Ramle and Lod, both of them Arab locales, about 2,000 remained after the Israeli conquest in July 1948. In other cities taken by the Israeli forces – such as Tiberias, Safed, Beisan (Beit She’an) and Be’er Sheva – no Arabs remained. Within a short time, the vast majority (85 percent) of the 160,000 Arabs who remained in the rest of Israel’s territory at the end of the war found themselves under military rule, subjected to permanent curfew and a strict regime that demanded authorizations and permits for movement (...)  

[Velasco]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

Sorry if posting about settler and state violence offends you, but I don't admit moral equidistance on these topics. If you opt for denialism, that's your problem. Occupation, violence and discrimination are key elements of the Israeli state and its politics

On the other hand, you were posting about Israel and UK Labour in the wrong thread.  If you love to discuss Israel related topics this is the place

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

Sorry if posting about settler and state violence offends you,

It's not that the subject offends me; it's the constant drumbeat of the same points being made over and over and over again. One of the most soul-crushing things about ~The Conflict~ is that so little ever fundamentally changes in it that there's never any need for new talking points to discuss new aspects of what's happening. So we're left with relitigating the late 1940s using lines of argument that are older than my parents.

On the other hand, you were posting about Israel and UK Labour in the wrong thread.  If you love to discuss Israel related topics this is the place

I do love to discuss Israel-related topics, so, on a somewhat related note, does anyone have updates on Ra'am and whether or not they've resumed participating in Knesset business?

[Velasco]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

Sorry if posting about settler and state violence offends you,

It's not that the subject offends me; it's the constant drumbeat of the same points being made over and over and over again. One of the most soul-crushing things about ~The Conflict~ is that so little ever fundamentally changes in it that there's never any need for new talking points to discuss new aspects of what's happening. So we're left with relitigating the late 1940s using lines of argument that are older than my parents.

On the other hand, you were posting about Israel and UK Labour in the wrong thread.  If you love to discuss Israel related topics this is the place

I do love to discuss Israel-related topics, so, on a somewhat related note, does anyone have updates on Ra'am and whether or not they've resumed participating in Knesset business?

Israel related topics include settler and state violence, sorry. These things are happening now, as well as other inhumane acts which relate to structutal violence and the very essence of the Israeli state. As for the Grand Mufti affairs, ask "Jolly Slugg" why is he intriducing this topic in a Cuba related thread

[Hnv1]

Please move your discussions to this thread and keep this thread for the regular political tidbits:
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=456420.0


The state budget bill is going to be a massive showdown. Abbas can't control the MKs for Ra'am and the coalition is losing votes in the house (yesterday decriminalization fell again, and Likud will pay for it in the polls).
The chancellery are planning quite a reformative bill and the socialists nimble wits are already starting gasp, I expect the bill will be heavily diluted to win the support of the JL.
Current major issues of conflict: Health budget; the formation of the new super Regulator; congestion tax; some changes in the pension structure; the Tel Aviv Metro project funding; and the agricultural reforms.
The farmers with their usual lobby are trying to keep Israel in the 1950s yet again by keeping the protectionism policies. The chancellery is offering direct subsidizing in exchange for opening the markets, B&W and Labour are backing the farmers naturally. If this doesn't pass I think YB should topple the government. 

Meanwhile, Sa'ar is quietly pushing for reforms in the judicial system. the main battle will begin soon as he tries to split the role of the AG into two. This move has very wide support in the public, but the super government of the ministry of justice will fight it to the death. As a lawyer from the left, I say it is time to finally break up this undemocratic and useless power grip of the justice department, even at the price of constitutional crisis.

[CumbrianLefty]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

In this case, the latter.

[Velasco]

Present day Israel is discussing Ben & Jerry. The Pegasus affair is more serious, but nobody cares. Needless to say the West Bank is annexed de facto and most Israel MKs call it "Judea and Samaria". Who said "conflict"?

https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1420344436341579777?s=19

[jaymichaud]

and most Israel MKs call it "Judea and Samaria". Who said "conflict"?

Maybe because it's a geographically accurate name, and the original name of the region to boot?

[AussieB]

and most Israel MKs call it "Judea and Samaria". Who said "conflict"?

Maybe because it's a geographically accurate name, and the original name of the region to boot?

Shocking, how dare they.

[AussieB]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

Sorry if posting about settler and state violence offends you, but I don't admit moral equidistance on these topics. If you opt for denialism, that's your problem. Occupation, violence and discrimination are key elements of the Israeli state and its politics

On the other hand, you were posting about Israel and UK Labour in the wrong thread.  If you love to discuss Israel related topics this is the place

Worry about Spanish settlers in Al-Andalus first.

[(no subject)]

Velasco ignores the Arab states plan to mass murder the Jewish population had they won in 1948, which they openly stated at the time and there is no reason to think they would not have gone through with it. You think they would have let the UN stop them?

He also portrays their all the land or none of the land gamble as noble even though it meant that if they lost that gamble they would get nothing.

Had they accepted the Partition plan, not only would there have been a Palestinian state alongside Israel these past seventy three years but this state would have been FAR larger than anything the Palestinians can hope to achieve now or in the future.

[Velasco]

Strewth, are you still banging on about this?

Is that addressed to Velasco or "Jolly Slugg"? Both of their most recent contributions to this thread are veering close to semantic satiation, although Jolly Slugg is probably the worse offender.

Sorry if posting about settler and state violence offends you, but I don't admit moral equidistance on these topics. If you opt for denialism, that's your problem. Occupation, violence and discrimination are key elements of the Israeli state and its politics

On the other hand, you were posting about Israel and UK Labour in the wrong thread.  If you love to discuss Israel related topics this is the place

Worry about Spanish settlers in Al-Andalus first.

Stop with your strawmen and ignorant remarks, please

[Velasco]

and most Israel MKs call it "Judea and Samaria". Who said "conflict"?

Maybe because it's a geographically accurate name, and the original name of the region to boot?

 "Judea and Samaria" must be some biblical reference.

 Apartheid Israel hates geography

[Lord Halifax]

and most Israel MKs call it "Judea and Samaria". Who said "conflict"?

Maybe because it's a geographically accurate name, and the original name of the region to boot?

 "Judea and Samaria" must be some biblical reference.

Apartheid Israel hates geography

No, they just use their own geographical terms, like most nations. Names that have been in continuous use since "Biblical Times".

Samaria was the name of one of the districts in Mandatory Palestine (though it also included Tulkarm in Israel), Judea was called Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Mandatory_Palestine

[Hnv1]

I opened a new thread for this sort of discussion to be housed there. not here. Please stop overcrowding this thread

[CumbrianLefty]

I opened a new thread for this sort of discussion to be housed there. not here. Please stop overcrowding this thread

Seconded, its not as if there's nothing happening in Israel just now.

[Hnv1]

The government voted for the budget bill which will not go to the floor of the Knesset and the finance committee for a tug war. There will be quite a lot of extorting MKs (especially from Ra'am), but it looks like it will pass. I think they kept a reserve to buy off Ta'al's votes.
The SC might stick their nose into some arrangements in the Framework Act (the budget bill in Israel since 1985 comes accompanied by a framework bill that includes a wide variety of reforms that are pushed together with the budget). And the greedy farmers are planning to run rampant for a while. But this is a good budget.

If the budget passes it becomes virtually impossible to topple the government until late 2023

[Hnv1]

Not uninteresting:

The Likud MKs voted on who would be the opposition's delegate to the judicial appointment committee and Bibi's candidate - Keren Barak - lost to Katz's candidate Orly Levy 11-18.
That actually draws the line between the Bibists and the Likudniks of the party.
The leadership primaries that will be held in 2022 might result in some splintter

[Estrella]

Netanyahu spent NIS 70k to fix air conditioner in last days as PM - report

(He ended up having to pay it out of his own pocket, but it's hilarious how he couldn't resist having a go at it one last time.)

[Hnv1]

Not uninteresting:

The Likud MKs voted on who would be the opposition's delegate to the judicial appointment committee and Bibi's candidate - Keren Barak - lost to Katz's candidate Orly Levy 11-18.
That actually draws the line between the Bibists and the Likudniks of the party.
The leadership primaries that will be held in 2022 might result in some splintter

Not uninteresting #2:
Eilat special mayoral elections were held yesterday and surprisingly Sa'ar's guy took over 40% and won against Bibi's candidate.
low turnout...municipal elections...etc.
Eilat is a strong Likud stronghold, and it's the sort of place that needs Likud to be the ruling party. The longest Likud remains out power the more mayors and such look for a new power tit to suck on.

[Hnv1]

Interesting:

Miri Regev in an interview says that the next Likud leader should be a Sephardi male\female (i.e., her) and if not than a new "Sephardi Likud" should form.

Interesting as it is pretty much what I anticipated for the second realignment we are saying and the third Israeli Party system. (that I think I published here a year ago?)

[Hnv1]

Said Al-Kharoumy MK (Ra'am) aged 49 passed away last night from a surprise heart attack He was the only Negev Bedouin MK, and abstained in the confidence vote for the new government.

He will be replaced (and I suspect to his party chairman's and Lapid\Bennett's relief) with Iman Khatib-Yasin, who was already an MK for a brief period between round 2 2019 and the 2020 elections. She will again be the only religious Muslim woman in the Knesset wearing a hijab. I suspect she will be more docile than Al-Kharoumy with the imminent budget bill.