Why did Catholic Societies develop a more artistic, expressive mentality than Protestant ones?
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  Why did Catholic Societies develop a more artistic, expressive mentality than Protestant ones?
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Author Topic: Why did Catholic Societies develop a more artistic, expressive mentality than Protestant ones?  (Read 666 times)
WindowPhil
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« on: June 12, 2021, 06:53:19 PM »

Look at a Catholic cathedral and you'll see that there's more of an emphasis on form than the Protestant churches. The building looks like it was built to be thought of a work of art that glorifies God. In contrast to the churches built in your typical Protestant society, which tends to be more visibly utilitarian and "No Frills" in its purpose.

Look at the food and you'll see that it's the same thing. Catholic societies having a legacy of caring about the flavor and the form of the food. In contrast to Protestant ones, who tend to express a similarly utilitarian mentality. Compare something like a Sunday Roast in Britain to Ratatouille in France. Places like France have a long standing culinary tradition that you don't see as much of in Germanic countries. Food is thought of as an art form vs just something that people eat to survive. Tasting the notes of the wine vs chugging the beer.

There also appears to be a less prudish view of nudity among religious people in these societies in general. I've used Google Street View in Latin America, and I saw a mural of a topless woman in a public place. There's also stuff like Brazilian Carnival that comes to mind. This is remarkable considering your average person in Latin America is quite religious and quite socially conservative in many aspects. Compare that to a painting like Botticelli's Birth Of Venus, a painting of a nude woman that was painted and embraced in 1480's Italy. A religious Catholic place. Contrast that to protestant societies, who view nudity in a utilitarian, inherently sexual context (or at least the American Bible Belt does).

The same goes for staying up late. Catholic societies embrace their midnight masses and their night owl practices (IE the French Canadian practice of the Réveillon). Dinner is generally eaten much later in the day. Etc. Whereas Protestant societies value things like "Early to bed and early to rise, makes a man healthy and wealthy and wise".

What's the origin of this distinction?
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2021, 08:06:16 PM »

Your examples are all over the place. I'll just point out that some of the best white wines in the world are grown in the traditionally Protestant Rhine region of Germany and leave it at that...

Really, when Protestant Europe has produced Shakespeaere, Rembrandt and Bach, the question should be why Catholic societies are so comparatively lacking in artistic mentality. Smiley
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 06:21:13 PM »
« Edited: June 14, 2021, 02:31:36 PM by HenryWallaceVP »

The premise of your question is incorrect. Like Stallius said, your examples are all over the place and not consistent with reality. In particular, I want to highlight a few specific areas to evince why what you're saying could just as easily be argued the other way.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, Spain, the most fervently Catholic country in Europe, was highly restrained in fashion compared to the rest of the continent. Look at Renaissance or Baroque paintings of Spanish people and you'll notice that they are usually wearing dark, sombre colors that lack many frills or decorative items. The reason for this is simple: in a hyper-religious country (even for the time) like Spain where the clergy wielded great power and influence, worldly pleasures like fancy clothing were discouraged. In contrast to this fashionable modesty, Protestant England was, after France, arguably the capital of foppery in Europe. At least since the Elizabethan era fashionable Englishmen and women embraced flamboyancy like few other Europeans. Of course, this was objected to by the Puritans, but they were in power but briefly and foppery was restored alongside the monarchy. That is not at all to suggest that the Puritans were culturally deficient simply because they scorned high fashion; on the contrary, it is well worth remembering that no less than John Milton and John Bunyan were Puritans.

In art, too, your point can be easily disproven. You mention the nudes of Botticelli, but neglect to consider that in the early 16th century the Lutheran convert Lucas Cranach the Elder was painting a series of intentionally provocative female nudes. It has been argued that this was the artist directly applying Lutheran theology to his art - just as Luther had renounced celibacy and the Catholic view of sex as a sinful necessity, Cranach in his work embraced human sexuality in rebellion of Catholic artistic norms. Traditionally, in Northern European art the body had been portrayed as an object of pity or shame (see the many suffering Christs of Early Netherlandish painting), but the Reformation openly challenged this tradition. The Catholic response to this threat is indicative. At the Council of Trent in 1563, the Church explicitly condemned "lasciviousness" in art. In Spain, meanwhile, nude paintings were outlawed altogether in 1640; it was the only country in Europe with such a law. As late as 1815, Goya was brought before the Inquisition for nudes he had painted decades earlier.

Musically, it is true that in the Renaissance and for much of the Baroque period Italy and France were still the leaders of the continent. However, in the Elizabethan era the English madrigal school was one of the most sought-after in Europe, and a century later Henry Purcell established himself as England's greatest ever composer. The 17th and 18th centuries also saw the rise of Germany as the third great composing country after Italy and France, and its most celebrated composers like Schütz, Pachelbel, Handel, and Bach tended to be Protestants. In fact, Lutheranism already had one of the most prized musical traditions in Christinaity, Luther himself having been a prolific hymnist.

All this is not to say that your observation is totally without value. It has been sometimes remarked upon how under the Borgias Italy had warfare and terror alongside Michelangelo and the Renaissance, while in Switzerland 500 years of peace and democracy produced only the cuckoo clock. While this is more of a political comparison than a religious one, I think you probably had something similar in mind when posing this question. Even so, this related notion that republics produce nothing of cultural value can just as easily be disproven by the fantastic artistic output of the Dutch Golden Age, to give just one example.
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buritobr
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2021, 04:05:02 PM »

I don't think the good food in Italy, France and Spain has relation to Catholicism. The lands surounding the Mediterranean Sea have always had a very sophisticated cousine. Greeks and romans enjoyed good food and wine even in the time when they believed in lots of gods. Muslim countries in the Mediterranean have also good cuisine.
In the past we could say that the protestant north of Europe eats only as a need, and not for pleasure. But recently, the best restaurant of the world was Jamie Oliver's one in London.
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Cathcon
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2021, 06:33:42 PM »
« Edited: June 17, 2021, 06:47:00 PM by Cath »

Catholics are naturally zesty, and full of life; for Italians, as one example, tomato sauce and various seasonings run in our veins. Protestants come from cold places, where scraping the permafrost to grab at various root plants is the primary pastime, and hard work is the only value--there is no place for art in such societies.
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SInNYC
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2021, 10:20:56 AM »

Catholics are naturally zesty, and full of life; for Italians, as one example, tomato sauce and various seasonings run in our veins. Protestants come from cold places, where scraping the permafrost to grab at various root plants is the primary pastime, and hard work is the only value--there is no place for art in such societies.

Must be recently evolved veins, since tomato sauce didnt exist in Italy until the last 500 or so years.
But yes, cold weather places arent exactly known for their cuisines since you're stuck with meat, potatoes, and pickled whatever most of the year.

Also, I suspect that the southern European trade routes allowed them to diversify their flavors more than the north.
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WindowPhil
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2021, 11:18:43 AM »

Catholics are naturally zesty, and full of life; for Italians, as one example, tomato sauce and various seasonings run in our veins. Protestants come from cold places, where scraping the permafrost to grab at various root plants is the primary pastime, and hard work is the only value--there is no place for art in such societies.

Must be recently evolved veins, since tomato sauce didnt exist in Italy until the last 500 or so years.
But yes, cold weather places arent exactly known for their cuisines since you're stuck with meat, potatoes, and pickled whatever most of the year.

Also, I suspect that the southern European trade routes allowed them to diversify their flavors more than the north.


Is that why the Southern U.S has a richer culinary tradition than the Northern U.S?
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Georg Ebner
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 01:02:15 PM »
« Edited: June 22, 2021, 01:06:19 PM by Georg Ebner »

The central aspect of Christianity is the InCarnation of GOD, thus catholicism (at least the WestRoman version) has always been focussed to halt with liturgy/dogmata/... any evaporizing into abstract metaphysical speculations or ethics. Thus being led by carrierists&canonists, not by theologians (St.PETER!). The economical/intellectual MiddleClasses having always been the Church's AchillesHeel: Heresies being taken over by merchants in the south, CraftsMen (weavers!) in the north; by those, who were/are too intelligent for simply reciting a catechism (and anyWay You can be sure, that catholicism cannot be represented in a catechism), but not for doubting their own Idio-SynCrasies.
Fitting to the protestantism of professor LUTHER: For political reasons supported here and there by sovereigns/aristocrats, but in general the vehicle of the bourgeoisie to take over the world. The puritanical preacher, who made faith the slave of human will, being obviously the predecessor of the left "intellectual". "Marxism is the puritanical theology of the bourgeois religion." (GOMEZ DAVILA)
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Samof94
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 05:37:04 PM »

Catholics are naturally zesty, and full of life; for Italians, as one example, tomato sauce and various seasonings run in our veins. Protestants come from cold places, where scraping the permafrost to grab at various root plants is the primary pastime, and hard work is the only value--there is no place for art in such societies.

Must be recently evolved veins, since tomato sauce didnt exist in Italy until the last 500 or so years.
But yes, cold weather places arent exactly known for their cuisines since you're stuck with meat, potatoes, and pickled whatever most of the year.

Also, I suspect that the southern European trade routes allowed them to diversify their flavors more than the north.


Is that why the Southern U.S has a richer culinary tradition than the Northern U.S?

That and slavery
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