Continental Europe enters the gender wars
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 23, 2021, 01:55:08 PM
News: EV Calculator updated with new apportionment numbers, custom labels, orange party color and more. Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash)
  Continental Europe enters the gender wars
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Continental Europe enters the gender wars  (Read 496 times)
Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Concerned Citizen
*****
Posts: 9,292
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: June 11, 2021, 09:25:27 AM »

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/06/12/continental-europe-enters-the-gender-wars

Quote
Debates about transgender rights have raged most angrily in the Anglophone world, but they are now intensifying across Europe. Last month the Spanish parliament voted against a bill that would allow people to determine their own gender. A day later Germany’s voted down two such bills. Few newspapers took any notice.

Self-id, as it is known, is the idea that people be allowed to change the legal markers of their sex simply by saying so, without jumping through any medical hoops. Trans-rights groups say this is crucial for trans people, who face daily prejudice. In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.
Logged
SecularGlobalist
vitoNova
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,490
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 10:24:28 AM »
« Edited: June 11, 2021, 10:27:37 AM by SecularGlobalist »

Silly debate, when you think about it.  Considering all these traits are determined by genetics at birth and cannot be altered.

So might as well accept it, and get used to it.

80% of all homo-sapiens are born completely heterosexual, with zero desire to deviate from CIS norms.
10% bisexual
5% homosexual
5% other (such as asexuals, furries, trans this-and-that, etc...)

^^^^ This is true of ALL mammals on Earth.  
Logged
Geoffrey Howe
Geoffrey Howe admirer
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,345
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 10:44:43 AM »

https://www.economist.com/europe/2021/06/12/continental-europe-enters-the-gender-wars

Quote
Debates about transgender rights have raged most angrily in the Anglophone world, but they are now intensifying across Europe. Last month the Spanish parliament voted against a bill that would allow people to determine their own gender. A day later Germany’s voted down two such bills. Few newspapers took any notice.

Self-id, as it is known, is the idea that people be allowed to change the legal markers of their sex simply by saying so, without jumping through any medical hoops. Trans-rights groups say this is crucial for trans people, who face daily prejudice. In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.

A fine for referring to a transgender person based on "natal sex." Extraordinary how authoritarian people can be. At this point, I've come to accept that most people are extremely hypocritical on these matters.
Logged
CumbrianLeftie
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,101
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2021, 10:47:59 AM »

The extreme end of anti-trans activism is vile, no getting away from that.
Logged
Estrella
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 954
Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2021, 10:51:07 AM »

Ah yes, Alben Barkley, or if Bronz were Concerned™ about The Transgenders instead of The Blacks.
Logged
parochial boy
parochial_boy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,966


Political Matrix
E: -8.38, S: -6.78

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2021, 11:55:26 AM »
« Edited: June 11, 2021, 12:02:04 PM by parochial boy »

Switzerland moved towards a self declaration system last December without basically anyone batting an eyelid (and legally recognizes non binary identities as of last month)

Broadly speaking, the trend in western continental Europe has been a rather quiet move towards better and easier recognition of trans identities, with only relatively limited pushback. In stark contrast to the USA. I mean the fact in itself that there has been barely  coverage of this even within Germany and Spain is probably the best example of how much more relaxed people are about the topic in continental Europe

Or, more specifically, the equivalent emotional debate in Europe tends to centre around gendered language, which is an issue that anglophones on this here blog tend to have a hard time understanding
Logged
tack50
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,219
Spain


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2021, 02:09:09 PM »

Switzerland moved towards a self declaration system last December without basically anyone batting an eyelid (and legally recognizes non binary identities as of last month)

Broadly speaking, the trend in western continental Europe has been a rather quiet move towards better and easier recognition of trans identities, with only relatively limited pushback. In stark contrast to the USA. I mean the fact in itself that there has been barely  coverage of this even within Germany and Spain is probably the best example of how much more relaxed people are about the topic in continental Europe

I will note that the debate in Spain debates on trans people haven't exactly flown under the radar either. In fact, it is one of the biggest differences between UP and PSOE, with UP being in favour of the new Trans Act and PSOE taking the usual TERF arguments (obviously the conservatives all oppose it for the reasons you may expect). Only rent control has as big of a divide between the 2 coalition parties.

However, the fact that while it is a huge debate, it is an internal debate within the government as opposed to a debate between the government and the opposition means that it is slightly less divisive and not as prominent compared to debates on say, taxes or "Spanish Unity/Catalonia" which are a much bigger part of discourse in Spain.

For what is worth, I tend to find the divide between pro-trans activists and anti-trans feminists to be one mostly based on age; with older feminists being against trans recognition and younger feminists being in favour. Of course the old vs young divide matches almost perfectly to PSOE vs UP here within the left.

I do agree with you that the issue is much less prominent in continental Europe (including Spain) than it seems to be in the USA or the UK; but at least here it isn't exactly 100% quiet either.
Logged
c r a b c a k e
CrabCake
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,706
Kiribati


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2021, 10:44:20 AM »

One of the weird things about the debate (there are actually several hundred weird things about the debate, but whatever) is that in practice "self-ID" is already in place for driving licences and passports, the two pieces of ID used most often day to day. The "Self-ID" legislation is just a way for birth certs to also be updated in a similar way (normally with a letter of approval from a doctor).

I think in practice, both sides often agree that the trans population is small enough that we can be considered on a case by case basis. Someone who just said they were trans yesterday should be treated in a different manner than a fully transitioned person who is for all intents and purposes, cis (or whatever PC word people who aren't trans prefer to be called): the deranged desire to bureaucratically treat all trans people the same is wrong-headed (in regards to prisons, sports, shelters, gender quotas etc). Someone with a lifetime of experiences as a woman is going to have different socializations as someone who transitioned at 12, and both of them have different socializations as someone who transitioned at 22, and all of them are different to someone who transitioned at 65.

Warning this next paragraph is probably an expression of my own internalized bitterness, and will almost certainly be the cause of my cancellation one of these days.

This comes down to an extremely unfortunate, and very unfair conclusion: it's all about passing, really. Although both sides will try and make out it's something different, the GC side because they want more of a philosophical basis for their views, the trans side because they want to be nice: the simple fact is that passing essentially solves the problem, and fixes the issue of instinctive revulsion everyone feels towards people who are unaesthetic, like so many late transitioners are.
Logged
Collyridian
discovolante
Atlas Politician
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 1,801
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.48, S: -7.65

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2021, 11:03:34 AM »

Quote
In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.

Admittedly, this is pretty excessive. Almost no one, myself included, thinks that reassignment surgery ought to be performed on minors, and I don't see the purpose of the fine besides fueling Jordan Peterson-style arguments about trans people being agents of censorship or whatever. I'd support the Spanish proposal, though.

Quote
The proposals are “an authoritarian move dressed up as a liberal one”, says Melli Beinhorn of LGB Alliance Deutschland, a gay-rights group.

No one who identifies with "LGB" should be taken seriously, and it angers me that they're given credibility here. Excluding trans people from any queer rights activism is rooted in seeing them as inferior or fraudulent, in a way that you wouldn't expect from other queer people but is all too common.

I still don't understand OP's derangement around trans issues. Does it not get tedious? Even as a trans person myself with an obligation to be tuned in to this sort of thing I can only take so much Discourse™ at one time before my brains start oozing out of my ears.
Logged
ingemann
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,119


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 05:33:13 AM »

Quote
In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.

Admittedly, this is pretty excessive. Almost no one, myself included, thinks that reassignment surgery ought to be performed on minors, and I don't see the purpose of the fine besides fueling Jordan Peterson-style arguments about trans people being agents of censorship or whatever. I'd support the Spanish proposal, though.

Quote
The proposals are “an authoritarian move dressed up as a liberal one”, says Melli Beinhorn of LGB Alliance Deutschland, a gay-rights group.

No one who identifies with "LGB" should be taken seriously, and it angers me that they're given credibility here. Excluding trans people from any queer rights activism is rooted in seeing them as inferior or fraudulent, in a way that you wouldn't expect from other queer people but is all too common.

I still don't understand OP's derangement around trans issues. Does it not get tedious? Even as a trans person myself with an obligation to be tuned in to this sort of thing I can only take so much Discourse™ at one time before my brains start oozing out of my ears.

I don’t see why they shouldn’t be taken serious just because they exclude trans people, whether they should be taken serious or not should depend on how many people they represent nothing else.
Logged
Collyridian
discovolante
Atlas Politician
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 1,801
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.48, S: -7.65

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2021, 05:44:58 AM »

Quote
In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.

Admittedly, this is pretty excessive. Almost no one, myself included, thinks that reassignment surgery ought to be performed on minors, and I don't see the purpose of the fine besides fueling Jordan Peterson-style arguments about trans people being agents of censorship or whatever. I'd support the Spanish proposal, though.

Quote
The proposals are “an authoritarian move dressed up as a liberal one”, says Melli Beinhorn of LGB Alliance Deutschland, a gay-rights group.

No one who identifies with "LGB" should be taken seriously, and it angers me that they're given credibility here. Excluding trans people from any queer rights activism is rooted in seeing them as inferior or fraudulent, in a way that you wouldn't expect from other queer people but is all too common.

I still don't understand OP's derangement around trans issues. Does it not get tedious? Even as a trans person myself with an obligation to be tuned in to this sort of thing I can only take so much Discourse™ at one time before my brains start oozing out of my ears.

I don’t see why they shouldn’t be taken serious just because they exclude trans people, whether they should be taken serious or not should depend on how many people they represent nothing else.

I'm not inclined to take you seriously on LGBT issues after you said:

TERF is simply a slur against women.
Logged
ingemann
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,119


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 05:59:00 AM »

Quote
In Germany one of the bills, put forward by the Green Party, proposed that children be allowed to have gender-reassignment surgery from the age of 14, even if parents oppose it. It would also have introduced a fine of €2,500 ($3,045) for referring to a trans person based on their natal sex.

Admittedly, this is pretty excessive. Almost no one, myself included, thinks that reassignment surgery ought to be performed on minors, and I don't see the purpose of the fine besides fueling Jordan Peterson-style arguments about trans people being agents of censorship or whatever. I'd support the Spanish proposal, though.

Quote
The proposals are “an authoritarian move dressed up as a liberal one”, says Melli Beinhorn of LGB Alliance Deutschland, a gay-rights group.

No one who identifies with "LGB" should be taken seriously, and it angers me that they're given credibility here. Excluding trans people from any queer rights activism is rooted in seeing them as inferior or fraudulent, in a way that you wouldn't expect from other queer people but is all too common.

I still don't understand OP's derangement around trans issues. Does it not get tedious? Even as a trans person myself with an obligation to be tuned in to this sort of thing I can only take so much Discourse™ at one time before my brains start oozing out of my ears.

I don’t see why they shouldn’t be taken serious just because they exclude trans people, whether they should be taken serious or not should depend on how many people they represent nothing else.

I'm not inclined to take you seriously on LGBT issues after you said:

TERF is simply a slur against women.

I really don’t care, I tell what I see, and I think anyone using the term TERF about other people is a bigot.
Logged
Lechasseur
Concerned Citizen
*****
Posts: 9,231
France


Political Matrix
E: -0.52, S: 3.13

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 06:40:14 AM »

Switzerland moved towards a self declaration system last December without basically anyone batting an eyelid (and legally recognizes non binary identities as of last month)

Broadly speaking, the trend in western continental Europe has been a rather quiet move towards better and easier recognition of trans identities, with only relatively limited pushback. In stark contrast to the USA. I mean the fact in itself that there has been barely  coverage of this even within Germany and Spain is probably the best example of how much more relaxed people are about the topic in continental Europe

Or, more specifically, the equivalent emotional debate in Europe tends to centre around gendered language, which is an issue that anglophones on this here blog tend to have a hard time understanding

Tbf I think it's more the other way round, no one cares because no one talks about it and no one encounters any of that stuff in real life.

It's hard to get worked up about something if you never encounter it or even really hear about it.

I'm talking about France ofc. Maybe it's more mediatized in other European countries.

I think if culture wars are so extreme in the US, it's because each side has to make a big song and dance about all of their positions rather than try to push for their views in a more discrete manner.
Logged
CumbrianLeftie
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,101
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2021, 06:43:27 AM »

TERF of course was first used as a term by radical feminists, to describe others of their ilk who they nonetheless disagreed with on trans issues. Clearly it has now become an all-purpose label for any who are not fully behind the trans rights agenda, but that is not how it originally emerged.
Logged
ingemann
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,119


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 06:05:46 PM »

Switzerland moved towards a self declaration system last December without basically anyone batting an eyelid (and legally recognizes non binary identities as of last month)

Broadly speaking, the trend in western continental Europe has been a rather quiet move towards better and easier recognition of trans identities, with only relatively limited pushback. In stark contrast to the USA. I mean the fact in itself that there has been barely  coverage of this even within Germany and Spain is probably the best example of how much more relaxed people are about the topic in continental Europe

Or, more specifically, the equivalent emotional debate in Europe tends to centre around gendered language, which is an issue that anglophones on this here blog tend to have a hard time understanding

Tbf I think it's more the other way round, no one cares because no one talks about it and no one encounters any of that stuff in real life.

It's hard to get worked up about something if you never encounter it or even really hear about it.

I'm talking about France ofc. Maybe it's more mediatized in other European countries.

I think if culture wars are so extreme in the US, it's because each side has to make a big song and dance about all of their positions rather than try to push for their views in a more discrete manner.

I think we shouldn’t ignore the aspect; that a lot of politicians doesn’t really care and if the politicians treat something as a silly non-issue, it becomes hard (even if the media would like to push it) to create interest for the issue. In a lot of European countries you don’t really have the same kind of environment on the universities to push these issues, as universities tend to be public owned and live up to some kind of standard of relevance, which American universities doesn’t need because they’re a private product.
Logged
ingemann
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,119


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2021, 06:08:00 PM »

TERF of course was first used as a term by radical feminists, to describe others of their ilk who they nonetheless disagreed with on trans issues. Clearly it has now become an all-purpose label for any who are not fully behind the trans rights agenda, but that is not how it originally emerged.

It started that way, but the Voldemort word also just started as the Latin word for black and any reasonable person would see that word as a slur today.

Words becomes slurs, if they’re used as slurs.
Logged
Collyridian
discovolante
Atlas Politician
Jr. Member
*****
Posts: 1,801
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.48, S: -7.65

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2021, 06:27:51 PM »

TERF of course was first used as a term by radical feminists, to describe others of their ilk who they nonetheless disagreed with on trans issues. Clearly it has now become an all-purpose label for any who are not fully behind the trans rights agenda, but that is not how it originally emerged.

It started that way, but the Voldemort word also just started as the Latin word for black and any reasonable person would see that word as a slur today.

Words becomes slurs, if they’re used as slurs.

I agree that the term is often misapplied, but to those who don't fit the "radical feminist" part rather than those who don't fit the "trans-exclusionary" part (e.g. the creator of Voldemort). Cis women who say that they feel "silenced" by trans people expressing their experience are generally very privileged and anti-intersectional. Calling it a "slur" trivializes those that are far more charged with hatred against the disadvantaged and gives in to the derangement of a contingent that does not by any means need a louder voice.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.055 seconds with 12 queries.