A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

[DaleCooper]

Now, I want to make very clear that very very few people on campus actually believed this sh!t. But the people who did were very vocal and, more importantly, had the institutional backing behind them. Conservatives have overstated the amount of people that believe this nonsense, but they didn't invent these issues out of thin air. The reason this argument works for conservatives is because it resonates, and resonates because it's real and it's ridiculous.

You think conservatives who spend every waking minute saying everyone who isn't them isn't a real American or is some cultural threat and tried to stage a violent coup and let a virus run rampant--all based on conspiracy theories--wouldn't make stuff up about the most marginalized groups of society? This stuff resonates with conservatives not because it has credibility, but because conservatives are living in their own alternate reality where they're the victims and everyone who doesn't fit their view of 'normal' is the oppressor.


It's amazing how quickly Dems have forgotten this a mere five months after Trump left office and treat this garbage that they've been spewing for years--often accompanied by sock-puppet 'activist' groups that are created solely to agree with them--is suddenly true and valid just because it's no longer coming from a Trump white house.

I don't know what you're talking about. All I did was share my lived experience from years before the 2020 election.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Just a thought:

For the vast majority of people all this transgender stuff is incomprehensible. Like it or not, there is a mountain to climb in gaining public understanding and sympathy. This, like most things, will only come gradually. The vicious discourse around the issue - which most people do not really understand - can only turn people off. Calling people "transphobic" at every opportunity is not going to help. Many, myself included, now refuse to go anywhere near the discussion; abjuring the possibility to be, as you might say, "enlightened."

To paraphrase slightly, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance.

Ignorance is an insufficient explanation for the current assault on transgender people and their rights. This is deliberate. It uses public ignorance, yes, but ignorance is  neither causing it nor powering it - that comes from malice and fear.

Record number of state bills in 2021 impact transgender rights, advocacy group says

A surge in legislation targeting trans youth "could come at the literal cost of lives," advocates warn

Amid Wave Of Anti-Trans Bills, Violence Against Transgender People Surges

As anti-trans violence surges, advocates demand policy reform

If, as a poster with a UK avatar, you want something that hits closer to home, here's a deeper dive into The Guardian's recent transphobia.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Just a thought:

For the vast majority of people all this transgender stuff is incomprehensible. Like it or not, there is a mountain to climb in gaining public understanding and sympathy. This, like most things, will only come gradually. The vicious discourse around the issue - which most people do not really understand - can only turn people off. Calling people "transphobic" at every opportunity is not going to help. Many, myself included, now refuse to go anywhere near the discussion; abjuring the possibility to be, as you might say, "enlightened."

To paraphrase slightly, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance.

I do understand that, but in many, many cases, especially in your country, the anti-trans rhetoric is simply too overwhelming and too vitriolic to be attributed to mere ignorance. Maybe opponents of trans rights could cease their vicious discourse, hmm?

[Geoffrey Howe]

Just a thought:

For the vast majority of people all this transgender stuff is incomprehensible. Like it or not, there is a mountain to climb in gaining public understanding and sympathy. This, like most things, will only come gradually. The vicious discourse around the issue - which most people do not really understand - can only turn people off. Calling people "transphobic" at every opportunity is not going to help. Many, myself included, now refuse to go anywhere near the discussion; abjuring the possibility to be, as you might say, "enlightened."

To paraphrase slightly, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance.

If, as a poster with a UK avatar, you want something that hits closer to home, here's a deeper dive into The Guardian's recent transphobia.

If The Guardian is "transphobic" you haven't the first hope anywhere else.
My understanding is that Stonewall misled Essex University as to the law: the report said it  gave an “incorrect summary of the law.”

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

You say “if The Guardian is transphobic you haven’t the first hope anywhere else” as if it’s some sort of own or comeback and not a saddening commentary on the state of public discourse around trans issues in Britain.

[Geoffrey Howe]

But it highlights my point. If The Guardian is perceived to be on the wrong side, there is a mountain to climb, and it's not going to happen with the current state of discourse.

[parochial boy]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

[afleitch]

But it highlights my point. If The Guardian is perceived to be on the wrong side, there is a mountain to climb, and it's not going to happen with the current state of discourse.

I mean the current discourse is that there are daily anti-trans articles in the UK press and the few pro-trans articles aren't written by trans people themselves. Constant claims that womens 'spaces are under threat' suggests that trans women are deemed to be threatening.

Stonewall have had negative articles and commentary in papers every day this month.

The 'discourse' is anti-trans. The discourse is powerful people using platforms against the powerless. The discourse is threatening anyone who is pro-trans.

There is a moral panic right now and the victims are voiceless.

[Cassius]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

[afleitch]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

2590 under 18's were referred in 2018/19 out of 14 million people under the age of 18.

0.0002%

The most conservative estimate of the number of trans adults is 0.2%.

[Geoffrey Howe]

But it highlights my point. If The Guardian is perceived to be on the wrong side, there is a mountain to climb, and it's not going to happen with the current state of discourse.

I mean the current discourse is that there are daily anti-trans articles in the UK press and the few pro-trans articles aren't written by trans people themselves. Constant claims that womens 'spaces are under threat' suggests that trans women are deemed to be threatening.

Stonewall have had negative articles and commentary in papers every day this month.

The 'discourse' is anti-trans. The discourse is powerful people using platforms against the powerless. The discourse is threatening anyone who is pro-trans.

There is a moral panic right now and the victims are voiceless.

What is an "anti-trans" article? Is criticism of Stonewall "anti-trans"?

[Cassius]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

2590 under 18's were referred in 2018/19 out of 14 million people under the age of 18.

0.0002%

The most conservative estimate of the number of trans adults is 0.2%.

An increase of more 3000% on 2009, when it was just 77. Of course, that's just the kids who are being referred to the clinic, so it's likely a substantial undershoot of the total figure.

[afleitch]

But it highlights my point. If The Guardian is perceived to be on the wrong side, there is a mountain to climb, and it's not going to happen with the current state of discourse.

I mean the current discourse is that there are daily anti-trans articles in the UK press and the few pro-trans articles aren't written by trans people themselves. Constant claims that womens 'spaces are under threat' suggests that trans women are deemed to be threatening.

Stonewall have had negative articles and commentary in papers every day this month.

The 'discourse' is anti-trans. The discourse is powerful people using platforms against the powerless. The discourse is threatening anyone who is pro-trans.

There is a moral panic right now and the victims are voiceless.

What is an "anti-trans" article? Is criticism of Stonewall "anti-trans"?

Stonewall is being attacked for supporting the trans community.

[afleitch]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

2590 under 18's were referred in 2018/19 out of 14 million people under the age of 18.

0.0002%

The most conservative estimate of the number of trans adults is 0.2%.

An increase of more 3000% on 2009, when it was just 77. Of course, that's just the kids who are being referred to the clinic, so it's likely a substantial undershoot of the total figure.

You're absolutely right. The number should be closer to 20000. That's what better provision for trans youth does.

When they stopped strapping left handed kids arms behind their back the number of kids who 'identified' as left handed shot up

[Cassius]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

2590 under 18's were referred in 2018/19 out of 14 million people under the age of 18.

0.0002%

The most conservative estimate of the number of trans adults is 0.2%.

An increase of more 3000% on 2009, when it was just 77. Of course, that's just the kids who are being referred to the clinic, so it's likely a substantial undershoot of the total figure.

You're absolutely right. The number should be closer to 20000. That's what better provision for trans youth does.

When they stopped strapping left handed kids arms behind their back the number of kids who 'identified' as left handed shot up

True, but being left handed doesn't require you to spend years (potentially) in therapy, years on puberty blockers and then have a course of difficult-to-reverse elective surgery, so it's perhaps not the most apposite of comparisons.

[pottedstilton]

But it highlights my point. If The Guardian is perceived to be on the wrong side, there is a mountain to climb, and it's not going to happen with the current state of discourse.

I mean the current discourse is that there are daily anti-trans articles in the UK press and the few pro-trans articles aren't written by trans people themselves. Constant claims that womens 'spaces are under threat' suggests that trans women are deemed to be threatening.

Stonewall have had negative articles and commentary in papers every day this month.

The 'discourse' is anti-trans. The discourse is powerful people using platforms against the powerless. The discourse is threatening anyone who is pro-trans.

There is a moral panic right now and the victims are voiceless.

There is a very broad consensus in the United Kingdom that trans people should be accommodated in society as well as possible. However, there are legitimate concerns held by women about how trans women can be accommodated in women-only spaces. For example, there have been appalling cases of sexual assault by trans women in women's prisons. Many women have genuine concerns about changing rooms, toilets and places of that nature. If you are going to callously shout down those women for 'transphobia', don't be surprised if you don't garner much support. Almost everyone in British public life is happy to have a good-faith discussion about trans issues, but that simply isn't possible if the debate is constantly hijacked by a small group of extremists who label any and all detractors as 'transphobes'. Stonewall has had negative articles and commentary because their schemes were a waste of public money and they seem to have adopted a rather unsavoury attitude towards free speech and dissent from their dogma (as in the case of Essex University). There have been people who are themselves trans who have heaped criticism on Stonewall for their behaviour. Are they 'anti-trans'?

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The big issue I see with all these accusations of transphobia is that it seems like everything published about trans issues is accused of being transphobic by some portion of the trans community, even when written or spoken by trans people themselves.  

The “cancellation” of Contrapoints (Natalie Wynn) last year is a perfect example.  She is a trans YouTube creator who has a very popular channel where she discusses a lot of different topics, with an emphasis on trans viewpoints.  I myself found her channel very enlightening in understand trans perspectives.  But she apparently said the “wrong” thing about the medical basis for gender dysphoria, and included a quote from the “wrong” trans activist, and was vicously attacked by some sector of the trans community to the point where she had to delete her twitter and put her channel on hiatus for several months.  (And Contrapoints is a leftist socialist herself; this doesn’t even touch on more deliberately heterodox trans creators like Blair White.)

Given all of this internal infighting, I can understand why the vast majority of people who are not trans and have little personal interaction with trans people are just left perplexed by what a reasonably enlightened perspective on this should even be.

[afleitch]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

2590 under 18's were referred in 2018/19 out of 14 million people under the age of 18.

0.0002%

The most conservative estimate of the number of trans adults is 0.2%.

An increase of more 3000% on 2009, when it was just 77. Of course, that's just the kids who are being referred to the clinic, so it's likely a substantial undershoot of the total figure.

You're absolutely right. The number should be closer to 20000. That's what better provision for trans youth does.

When they stopped strapping left handed kids arms behind their back the number of kids who 'identified' as left handed shot up

True, but being left handed doesn't require you to spend years (potentially) in therapy, years on puberty blockers and then have a course of difficult-to-reverse elective surgery, so it's perhaps not the most apposite of comparisons.

I'm asking you to think it through.

If at least 0.2% of people are trans (and it could be closer to 1%) but only 0.0002% were referred under the age of 18, then surely the actual number who should be getting referred should be much much higher, and that a rise in referrals isn't something suspicious. Indeed what should be suspect is that the figure is too low.

However, if you believe that 77 referrals, a decade ago is correct, then what you're effectively saying is that in the UK there are in fact only a few hundred trans people. So much so that there are more trans articles in newspapers than trans people in the whole country and therefore I am sure even you being fair minded would consider that to be quite a substantive 'overkill' bordering on one of the most obsessive and punitive attacks of a small group of people this country has ever seen. That's the equivalent of having national newspapers on a daily basis and MP's in committee and thousands on twitter obsess over the members of my local gym.

On the issue of prison sexual assault this might astound you, but the hyper majority of prisoner-on-prisoner sexual offenses in mens prisons are inflicted by men on men and in women's prisons by women on women.

Indeed in England in Wales, in 2019, only 1 sexual assault was carried out by a trans prisoner. 11 m2f transgender prisoners, remaining in the prison facility as they remained legally male, but identified as female were victims of sexual assault. In women's prisons, over the preceding decade, 95% of prisoner on prisoner sexual assaults were carried out by cis women.

[parochial boy]

The thing is though, the Guardian does regularly publish stuff like hate pieces from Julie Blindel or Suzanne Moore or whoever- that the left of centre sources in North America or Continental Europe wouldn't even dream of publishing. The fact that the pre-eminent left wing UK news source does so regularly publish transphobic articles is a pretty clear indicator that transphobia is much more widespread and vicious - including and especially among left wing circles - in the UK than it is in the USA or France or Germany or wherever. And it's not as if the UK is unique in having vicious arguments around issues of gender identity.

Where are these regular 'hate pieces'? I've skimmed the contributor pages for both of those writers and Moore has published precisely one article relating to trans issues in the last year, whilst Bindel has published precisely none. I regularly read the Guardian and the vast majority of the stuff relating to trans issues that I've read in that paper is broadly sympathetic (and often in lockstep with the positions of the organisations like Stonewall). Even in some of the more conservative periodicals (the Spectator, the Critic et al) there's little that can be fairly defined as 'transphobic' unless transphobia is defined as 'disagreeing with trans people/activists about anything'. The debate in the UK is not as to whether 'trans people exist' or not, or whether they should have the right to transition or not. Instead, the debate seems to boil down to two key issues:

1. The ability of trans women who haven't transitioned or are still in the process of transitioning to use traditionally female spaces (bathrooms, female prisons etc), which links into the wariness of some about self ID. There has been at least one well documented incident of a not fully transitioned prisoner sexually assaulting female inmates when place inside a woman's prison https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
2. The impact of 'gender affirming' approaches to therapy given to young children, especially given the enormous rise that has taken place over the last few years in the number of children declaring themselves to be the opposite gender to the one that matches their physical characteristics (with these tending to be girls as opposed to boys, which is a change from the past).

Of course, it's an emotive issue and a lot of harsh rhetoric pings around from both sides (unless of course you believe that all of the 'TERFs' are lying about the death and rape threats that they regularly receive, which seems distinctly unlikely). Nonetheless, it's better that the above, serious, issues are discussed as opposed to being swept under the carpet for fear of being called a TERF or a transphobe. It's very odd that Britain is being singled out as a uniquely transphobic country when by far the bulk of the legislative action designed to curtail the options of transgender people is taking place in the United States (and of course outside the Western world), in comparison to our own government (governments if you count the devolved ones), which mostly followed the zeitgeist on the issue until it was forced to back off over self ID, which is not a simple issue.

OK, I will hold my hands up that I have largely given up reading the Guardian in the last couple of years - for reasons of it's general inability to accurately report on anything happening outside of the UK or USA more than for any other reasons - and a scan of recent articles does seem to have changed from when I was reading it when there were a slew of articles and editorials that were far from supportive of trans issues shall we say. On the other issues I don't want to get into another tiring argument that others are already engaging in. I would just say that the idea of holding all transwomen - already among the most discriminated against, ostracised, and most likely to face physical violence of all groups of people - as collectively responsible for an isolated number of cases (as in, the one you cited was someone who was a known sex offender before being sentenced to a women's prison, that is a far cry from allowing a transwoman into a women's shelter to escape domestic violence) is pretty horrifying. Especially when, in doing so, you are forcing them out of women's spaces and into spaces where it a near guarantee that they face physical violence (ie men's prisons)..

As for your final paragraph - yes, I absolutely agree that among western countries, it is the US that seems to be the biggest source of deliberate and wantonly transphobic legislation; and it is unusual in the degree to which opposition to trans rights is a particularly mainstream concern. What makes the UK unique though, is the degree to which people you would generally consider as being on the "left" take part in it. In the US, it is a problem that can be pretty uniquely isolated to the republican party and conservative movements - whereas a British transwoman doesn't even have the relative luxury of knowing that the people they might hope to rely on will even be on their side.

[DaleCooper]

The big issue I see with all these accusations of transphobia is that it seems like everything published about trans issues is accused of being transphobic by some portion of the trans community, even when written or spoken by trans people themselves.  

The “cancellation” of Contrapoints (Natalie Wynn) last year is a perfect example.  She is a trans YouTube creator who has a very popular channel where she discusses a lot of different topics, with an emphasis on trans viewpoints.  I myself found her channel very enlightening in understand trans perspectives.  But she apparently said the “wrong” thing about the medical basis for gender dysphoria, and included a quote from the “wrong” trans activist, and was vicously attacked by some sector of the trans community to the point where she had to delete her twitter and put her channel on hiatus for several months.  (And Contrapoints is a leftist socialist herself; this doesn’t even touch on more deliberately heterodox trans creators like Blair White.)

Given all of this internal infighting, I can understand why the vast majority of people who are not trans and have little personal interaction with trans people are just left perplexed by what a reasonably enlightened perspective on this should even be.

Ideologues use trans people as a political bludgeon to silence whoever they feel the need to get rid of at any given moment. It seems to me like extremists are trying to prevent reasonable people from being public advocates for LGBT issues, and this is a potential explanation for the far left's attempts to harass Contrapoints into oblivion and it also in a slightly different situation explains the insane anti-gay attacks they used against Pete Buttigieg as well.

[Hammy]

Now, I want to make very clear that very very few people on campus actually believed this sh!t. But the people who did were very vocal and, more importantly, had the institutional backing behind them. Conservatives have overstated the amount of people that believe this nonsense, but they didn't invent these issues out of thin air. The reason this argument works for conservatives is because it resonates, and resonates because it's real and it's ridiculous.

You think conservatives who spend every waking minute saying everyone who isn't them isn't a real American or is some cultural threat and tried to stage a violent coup and let a virus run rampant--all based on conspiracy theories--wouldn't make stuff up about the most marginalized groups of society? This stuff resonates with conservatives not because it has credibility, but because conservatives are living in their own alternate reality where they're the victims and everyone who doesn't fit their view of 'normal' is the oppressor.


It's amazing how quickly Dems have forgotten this a mere five months after Trump left office and treat this garbage that they've been spewing for years--often accompanied by sock-puppet 'activist' groups that are created solely to agree with them--is suddenly true and valid just because it's no longer coming from a Trump white house.

I don't know what you're talking about. All I did was share my lived experience from years before the 2020 election.

The first part was directly addressing the bold, the second was in general, particularly people like op.

[Agonized-Statism]

It's amazing how quickly Dems have forgotten this a mere five months after Trump left office and treat this garbage that they've been spewing for years--often accompanied by sock-puppet 'activist' groups that are created solely to agree with them--is suddenly true and valid just because it's no longer coming from a Trump white house.

Massive respect for pointing this out.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

There is no backlash whatsoever against "gender ideology" in the United States among academics. Speaking from personal experience, which is actually quite valid in the case, I can assure you that there is a strong desire to appear inclusive and accepting of transgender people among the most unlikeliest of academics, including near-elderly emigres from Europe whose political views seem to be "centrist liberalism" or among near-elderly people who considered voting for Bloomberg in 2020.

One reason for this might be that the US does not have a single-payer system, which reframes the debate in terms of whether or not the government should openly discriminate against transgender people who have the temerity to want to play sports or go to the bathroom. In the UK, the debate will be heated because there are severe ethical considerations attached to allowing minors to begin transitioning to another gender and the NHS must decide its course. In my view, when people focus on this element of the transgender divide, people are much more liable to become "TERFs" but it isn't something people think about in the US.

[If my soul was made of stone]

It seems to me like extremists are trying to prevent reasonable people from being public advocates for LGBT issues, and this is a potential explanation for the far left's attempts to harass Contrapoints into oblivion and it also in a slightly different situation explains the insane anti-gay attacks they used against Pete Buttigieg as well.

At the risk of wading into the sort of hardened radical queer theorist territory for which I have a bit of notoriety here, the attacks on Pete from queer voices on the left weren't about his sexuality in isolation, but the perception that he had sold out his queerness to neoliberal/neoconservative pandering and ensconced himself in the values and expectations of a social order built on upholding cisgender heterosexuality (academic types will call this "homonormativity"). The idea that the "queer community" is unified and needs to know better for its own interests is patronizing and paternalistic, and ignores the perspective of many queer voices that have come to reject broader social norms rather than try to seek their approval. I would certainly much prefer a world where I wouldn't risk getting murdered for being transgender, but debates like this where cishet perspectives with no firsthand knowledge of our experience act like they know what's best for a very heterodox collection of people makes me wonder if it's ever worth the effort to get the world on my (or our) side, and while I'd prefer a world with less hot-button discourse eating my people alive it's the inevitable result of advances in queer rights and the Information Age atomization of sociopolitical spheres.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

One reason for this might be that the US does not have a single-payer system, which reframes the debate in terms of whether or not the government should openly discriminate against transgender people who have the temerity to want to play sports or go to the bathroom. In the UK, the debate will be heated because there are severe ethical considerations attached to allowing minors to begin transitioning to another gender and the NHS must decide its course. In my view, when people focus on this element of the transgender divide, people are much more liable to become "TERFs" but it isn't something people think about in the US.

This is exacerbated by economically right wing, bad faith actors who'd rather like to dismantle (domestically) or prevent (abroad) universal healthcare. Those hacks' framing of situation here is the "progressive" equivalent of death panels rhetoric.