US involvement during the WW2

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/ml_1maria/status/1394573542507884547

https://twitter.com/HaoWu32060495/status/1394579050945859584

Why are there people thinking FDR supported the Nazis before Pearl Harbour ?
Discuss.
I want to know.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Maybe they confused FDR with Henry Ford?

[vitoNova]

That's a somewhat common belief amongst a small segment of the 'pop-culture left' who are perhaps not very well-versed in history that the US government was fundamentally reactionary and supported the Axis and were only forced to become the good guys after Pearl Harbor.

God bless their hearts.

[John Dule]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

[KaiserDave]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

[John Dule]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

I'll agree that the Russian people sacrificed the most (and probably experienced the worst material conditions of anyone during the war, with the exception of the Chinese)-- but saying that "The Soviet Union" did the most to fight Hitler strikes me as borderline revisionist given that they essentially gave the Germans free license to start the war in the first place.

[Red Velvet]

FDR flirted with them and so did lots of other people who then joined the fight against the Nazis. Here in Brazil Getúlio Vargas also played both sides for much longer until pressure was too big to side with the allies. Doesn’t change how Vargas was the best president Brazil ever had. Same thing with how FDR was brilliant.

People have too much of the romanticized post-war narrative created by the victors and forget how Hitler managed to grow so much with apparently little international obstacles. The 30s were a period of lots of turmoil because of crisis of 1929 and all of the world was entering a more populist phase as a reaction to the economic anxiety.

And by populist phase, that means anti-establishment anger coming from both the left and the right. Those movements started gaining lots of track, including fascism and nazism, but also communism. In some places you had far-right leaders, in other far-left ones and in others you had pragmatic anticommunist populists who adopted ambitious left-wing friendly policies in order to prevent growth of radicalism in their countries. And it worked. Getúlio Vargas was an anticommunist who became the biggest left-wing icon of Brazilian left after.

However, that doesn’t mean these leaders, such as FDR, had a crystal clear image that we have now in retrospect many years later. So many stuff was happening so fast and politics were so chaotic in that decade that it makes sense that some world leaders at the start maybe thought that Hitler could be just one of them with his own domestic strategy and that it wasn’t their business getting involved with European business. Add to that the fact lots of the worst news of what Germany was doing and the high level it reached, they arrived with a delay to other countries. There wasn’t the technology we have today to spread the information in such a widely manner.

So even if it’s true, it makes sense considering the confusing and chaotic background of the times. It isn’t a demerit of the US to enter war only after they got prejudiced, especially when USSR wasn’t so innocent either and made no-attack deals with the Nazis. US got involved the war after they were attacked and so did the Soviets after the Nazis broke the deal and invaded USSR.

Even if the Soviets killed more Nazis during the war and did more to end it, it can also be argued they also allowed and financed Nazi Germany (1940 commercial agreement) way more to grow for so long with the pact they had. If it can be argued that the Soviets were better, it can also be argued that they were worse.

Basically, there are no 100% innocent heroes with pure good hearted intentions anywhere and people will always be bound to get disappointed whenever they create such expectations. I cannot see US or USSR as villains or heroes for their decisions in WWII. The Soviet pact with the Nazis also had the goal of protecting their country against Nazi aggression and US isn’t even located in Europe for them to have that large of responsibility in interfering.

Problem is that people will always act like international relations are a hero vs villain game with good and bad guys in order to fit whatever their national propaganda is. Everyone creates a narrative in which they are the heroes but reality is that every country is thinking about themselves and their domestic interests first, always has been. Only exception are puppet governments.

[KaiserDave]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

I'll agree that the Russian people sacrificed the most (and probably experienced the worst material conditions of anyone during the war, with the exception of the Chinese)-- but saying that "The Soviet Union" did the most to fight Hitler strikes me as borderline revisionist given that they essentially gave the Germans free license to start the war in the first place.

Agreed, especially on the noting of the immense sacrifice of the Chinese, which is highly overlooked.

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

I'll agree that the Russian people sacrificed the most (and probably experienced the worst material conditions of anyone during the war, with the exception of the Chinese)-- but saying that "The Soviet Union" did the most to fight Hitler strikes me as borderline revisionist given that they essentially gave the Germans free license to start the war in the first place.

While also noting the extreme suffering endured by the USSR and its vital role in defeating the Germans in the Eastern Front, the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort should not be discounted, for without it the Red Army’s advance throughout Eastern Europe would have been much slower. What the Soviets contributed in blood, the Americans contributed in industry.

[PSOL]

WWII was a team effort.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I dislike being on the "pro-Soviet" side, let alone the "pro-Stalin" side, but (a) It seemed clear in the late 30s that Britain and France would not stop German expansion; (b) History tells any Russian statesman pre-~1991 to fear an invasion from Western/Central Europe. "Settling" the matter of Eastern Europe certainly could have been seen by some in Moscow as a good way to preempt further problems. It turns out it was not.

That said we can of course in no way excuse what exactly the Soviets did with their half of Eastern Europe once they got it.

[buritobr]

Even before the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US was closer to the Allies. They were sending supplies to Britain through the North Atlantic.

But as Hao Wu remembered, there was an erasure of the eastern european front of the collective memory of the western world after the WW2 ended and the Cold War started. The Red Army destroyed 70% of the Wehrmacht.

[Mr. Smith]

WWII is largely about The Pacific for the U.S., specifically them and China against Japan.

[Alben Barkley]

Twitter leftists are morons. Really not surprised someone supporting BDS would be so ignorant, though a bit ironic that she is projecting her own support for anti-Semites and Nazi sympathizers on the US in the early stage of WW2, when we were giving s—tloads of supplies to the allies, including the Soviets, and FDR was waiting for the first possible opportunity to enter the war.

[Alben Barkley]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

I'll agree that the Russian people sacrificed the most (and probably experienced the worst material conditions of anyone during the war, with the exception of the Chinese)-- but saying that "The Soviet Union" did the most to fight Hitler strikes me as borderline revisionist given that they essentially gave the Germans free license to start the war in the first place.

While also noting the extreme suffering endured by the USSR and its vital role in defeating the Germans in the Eastern Front, the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort should not be discounted, for without it the Red Army’s advance throughout Eastern Europe would have been much slower. What the Soviets contributed in blood, the Americans contributed in industry.

Stalin himself is quoted as saying: “The war was won with American steel, British intelligence, and Russian blood.” He knew damn well they couldn’t have done it without Lend-Lease, which again began before Pearl Harbor.

[GeneralMacArthur]

You know when you think really hard about it, the U.S. was actually on the side of the British during the Revolutionary War.  But you won't learn that in school.

[LBJer]

Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis

This is a straw man.  The important thing wasn't that the Soviets had the most dead soldiers, but that they were responsible for the largest number of dead German soldiers. 

[LBJer]

WWII was a team effort.

But a team effort doesn't necessarily mean that each member of the team makes an equal contribution.  Let's say I have two roommates and our rent is $200 a month.  Suppose I contribute $140 a month, one of my roommates puts up $40, and the other gives $20.  Is paying the rent a team effort?  Yes.  Is any one person's contribution enough to pay it?  No.  But am I nevertheless doing much more to pay the rent than my two roommates combined are?  Yes. 

The evidence strongly suggests that a similar situation existed regarding the Soviet contribution to defeating Germany versus that of the other allies. 

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Why are there people thinking FDR supported the Nazis before Pearl Harbour ?

Because they are morons.

Really once you accept as a foundational premise that America are always the bad guys, it all falls into place.

Major premise: America are always the bad guys.
Minor premise: A bad guy would support Hitler during WWII.
Conclusion: America supported Hitler during WWII.

[dead0man]

WWII was a team effort.

But a team effort doesn't necessarily mean that each member of the team makes an equal contribution.  Let's say I have two roommates and our rent is $200 a month.  Suppose I contribute $140 a month, one of my roommates puts up $40, and the other gives $20.  Is paying the rent a team effort?  Yes.  Is any one person's contribution enough to pay it?  No.  But am I nevertheless doing much more to pay the rent than my two roommates combined are?  Yes. 

The evidence strongly suggests that a similar situation existed regarding the Soviet contribution to defeating Germany versus that of the other allies. 

yeah, but if the guy who only paid 20 bucks bled more for it...

[Woody]

The idea that Russia "contributed the most to the defeat of Germany" has always been laughable to me. Having the most dead soldiers is not the same as doing the most to stop the Nazis, and Stalin enabled the Germans at every possible opportunity before Hitler's betrayal.

Agree and disagree. Agree that Stalin absolutely enabled Hitler, disagree that the USSR didn't do the most to defeat Germany. The war was won on the Eastern Front. It was on at Stalingrad, at Moscow, and at Kursk and so on. The peoples of the USSR bled in the millions to fight a war of extermination against them, and the decisive battles of the war were fought in the East. Crimea had already fallen before Americans, British, and Canadians landed at Normandy, and the Red Army was going to reach Berlin eventually, it was only a question of how long.

None of this is meant to disregard to immense contributions of everybody else, but there's a legitimate case to be made that the people of the USSR did the most work.

I'll agree that the Russian people sacrificed the most (and probably experienced the worst material conditions of anyone during the war, with the exception of the Chinese)-- but saying that "The Soviet Union" did the most to fight Hitler strikes me as borderline revisionist given that they essentially gave the Germans free license to start the war in the first place.

80% of German military causualties was on the Soviet Front. No need to play down the Soviet contribution to the war effort..

[LBJer]

WWII was a team effort.

But a team effort doesn't necessarily mean that each member of the team makes an equal contribution.  Let's say I have two roommates and our rent is $200 a month.  Suppose I contribute $140 a month, one of my roommates puts up $40, and the other gives $20.  Is paying the rent a team effort?  Yes.  Is any one person's contribution enough to pay it?  No.  But am I nevertheless doing much more to pay the rent than my two roommates combined are?  Yes. 

The evidence strongly suggests that a similar situation existed regarding the Soviet contribution to defeating Germany versus that of the other allies. 

yeah, but if the guy who only paid 20 bucks bled more for it...

You totally missed the point.  My point was that a "team effort" doesn't mean that the contributions of all members of the team are equally large.  And my analogy was NOT meant to imply that contributions to victory in a war should simply be measured in terms of money. 

[All Along The Watchtower]

"America won WWII!'
"No dummy, it was the Soviets!"
"Oh yeah? What about Molotov-Ribbentrop?"
"Really? What about Munich?
"What about Poland?"
"You're a Fascist!"
"How dare you, you Stalinist!"

*outside observers roll their eyes so far that they fall out of their skulls*

[darklordoftech]

People who were pro-Hitler claimed that FDR was secretly Jewish. FDR was many things, but pro-Hitler wasn’t one of them.

[All Along The Watchtower]

People who were pro-Hitler claimed that FDR was secretly Jewish. FDR was many things, but pro-Hitler wasn’t one of them.

THE JEW DEAL