The notion that Kamala Harris is a weak candidate

[Da2017]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren. 

[Del Tachi]

It's certainly suspicious that people feel so strongly about someone who's basically a generic Democrat. She'd need to learn from her mistakes from 2019 if she were to run for president in 2024, but I don't buy that she'd be DOA against DeSantis.

Saying she'd be DOA vs DeSantis both underestimates her and overestimates him.

Speaking of people underestimating her, a lot of it sounds exactly the same as when people underestimated Biden for no sensical reason. Remember: Biden crashing-&-burning hard in 1988 & 2008 were supposed to be proof that he obviously wouldn't be able to win the nomination in 2020, let alone the general. If being VP turned Biden from somebody who failed to win 1% in the only primary contest in which he ever competed in up until that point - Iowa 2008 - into a President who defeated his incumbent predecessor to win, then there's no reason that Kamala wouldn't be able to similarly benefit.

As Vice President, Biden was never covered as critically as, say, Hillary Clinton because it was largely assumed that he wouldn't be a candidate for president in 2016 or later.

This made Biden extremely well-positioned to win in 2020 once Obama's approvals appreciated during Trump's tenure.

Harris isn't getting this same treatment.  She's already being covered as a 2024 frontrunner, which has intensified (conservative) media interest around her.  And she has the favorability ratings to prove it. 

It's also interesting to note how ahistorical Harris winning in 2024/28 would be.  An incumbent Democrat VP hasn't won since Martin Van Buren.

[Literally Just a Contrarian]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren. 

Many times when Kamala speaks she comes across as a dumb wine mom/Karen, except she isn’t white. Her performance in the debate reminded me a ton of a particularly terrible English teacher I had.

[Da2017]

It's certainly suspicious that people feel so strongly about someone who's basically a generic Democrat. She'd need to learn from her mistakes from 2019 if she were to run for president in 2024, but I don't buy that she'd be DOA against DeSantis.

DeSantis almost lost to this.  https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/10/23/records-show-fbi-agents-gave-andrew-gillum-tickets-to-hamilton-in-2016/  She is far from DOA.

[Roronoa D. Law]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren.  

Many times when Kamala speaks she comes across as a dumb wine mom/Karen, except she isn’t white. Her performance in the debate reminded me a ton of a particularly terrible English teacher I had.

Whatever personal grief you have with Harris or whoever this English teacher does not deny that she performed well in that debate and receive praised all around.

[SWE]

It's certainly suspicious that people feel so strongly about someone who's basically a generic Democrat. She'd need to learn from her mistakes from 2019 if she were to run for president in 2024, but I don't buy that she'd be DOA against DeSantis.

Saying she'd be DOA vs DeSantis both underestimates her and overestimates him.

Speaking of people underestimating her, a lot of it sounds exactly the same as when people underestimated Biden for no sensical reason. Remember: Biden crashing-&-burning hard in 1988 & 2008 were supposed to be proof that he obviously wouldn't be able to win the nomination in 2020, let alone the general. If being VP turned Biden from somebody who failed to win 1% in the only primary contest in which he ever competed in up until that point - Iowa 2008 - into a President who defeated his incumbent predecessor to win, then there's no reason that Kamala wouldn't be able to similarly benefit.

Harris would likely have done much better if Biden hadn't ran - that much needs to be said.

Based on what? My recollection is that Biden voters typically listed Bernie as their second choice. If anything, having both of Bernie and Biden in the race and cutting into each other's coalitions should have made it a lot easier for Harris than it would be if it was just one of the two.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

It's certainly suspicious that people feel so strongly about someone who's basically a generic Democrat. She'd need to learn from her mistakes from 2019 if she were to run for president in 2024, but I don't buy that she'd be DOA against DeSantis.

Saying she'd be DOA vs DeSantis both underestimates her and overestimates him.

Speaking of people underestimating her, a lot of it sounds exactly the same as when people underestimated Biden for no sensical reason. Remember: Biden crashing-&-burning hard in 1988 & 2008 were supposed to be proof that he obviously wouldn't be able to win the nomination in 2020, let alone the general. If being VP turned Biden from somebody who failed to win 1% in the only primary contest in which he ever competed in up until that point - Iowa 2008 - into a President who defeated his incumbent predecessor to win, then there's no reason that Kamala wouldn't be able to similarly benefit.

Harris would likely have done much better if Biden hadn't ran - that much needs to be said.

Based on what? My recollection is that Biden voters typically listed Bernie as their second choice. If anything, having both of Bernie and Biden in the race and cutting into each other's coalitions should have made it a lot easier for Harris than it would be if it was just one of the two.

Bernie is the biggest beneficiary from Biden not running, but Harris would likely gain quite a bit as well, particularly among non-white moderates. Biden basically snatched up the vast majority of the votes in her path of least resistance that weren't nail-down safe Harris votes, and then some.

[Literally Just a Contrarian]

It's certainly suspicious that people feel so strongly about someone who's basically a generic Democrat. She'd need to learn from her mistakes from 2019 if she were to run for president in 2024, but I don't buy that she'd be DOA against DeSantis.

DeSantis almost lost to this.  https://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/10/23/records-show-fbi-agents-gave-andrew-gillum-tickets-to-hamilton-in-2016/  She is far from DOA.

Remember when Gillum was considered to be the next Obama and would definitely win Florida by 7? Good times.

People act like Gillum was always seen as a joke candidate when everyone was lavishing praise on him back in 2018 like he was a star.

[John Dule]

Harris is a meme candidate who shouldn't waste time sucking attention away from serious contenders like Andrew Yang.

[Pericles]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren. 

Many times when Kamala speaks she comes across as a dumb wine mom/Karen, except she isn’t white. Her performance in the debate reminded me a ton of a particularly terrible English teacher I had.

Ok coolface.

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

She’s a fairly weak candidate. I think that she is actually overestimated in this forum.

She has a lack of appeal to the electorate and has zero charisma. And no, it has nothing to do with her race or gender. There are minority women out there who have actual charisma and can inspire turnout. Harris doesn’t have any of those qualities, she’s no Barack Obama.

Yeah, she's overestimated. She would 100% underperform Biden 2020 in terms of states (apart from NC), but I remember a thread which asked which Biden 2020 states Harris would lose, and no red avatars would name any.

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren. 

Both

[Holy Unifying Centrist]

I personally like her more than Biden. Biden comes across as weak & inept. Harris seems stronger and more competent in comparison. She might be a little more annoying rhetoric wise because she talks more about social issues and democratic pet projects, but Biden isn't exactly great in that respect either.

[Progressive Pessimist]

I'm not entirely convinced she's weak, but I am also not entirely convinced that she would be strong. This indecision isn't necessarily her fault as much as it is my distrust of the American electorate and the environments that influence them. If Harris were to be nominated instead of Biden, for example, she would immediately lose the incredible advantage of incumbency. That alone could make a world of difference in these partisan and closely divided times.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I'm not entirely convinced she's weak, but I am also not entirely convinced that she would be strong. This indecision isn't necessarily her fault as much as it is my distrust of the American electorate and the environments that influence them. If Harris were to be nominated instead of Biden, for example, she would immediately lose the incredible advantage of incumbency. That alone could make a world of difference in these partisan and closely divided times.

I agree that it'd be an exceedingly stupid proposition for the Dems to decide that VP Harris seeking the presidency is better than Biden running a second term.

[Warren 4 Secretary of Everything]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Wow... I feel attacked

[Literally Just a Contrarian]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Far from it. That's vibe with Warren.  

Many times when Kamala speaks she comes across as a dumb wine mom/Karen, except she isn’t white. Her performance in the debate reminded me a ton of a particularly terrible English teacher I had.

Whatever personal grief you have with Harris or whoever this English teacher does not deny that she performed well in that debate and receive praised all around.

No she got schooled by Pence and looked like an idiot. Obama vs Romney first debate vibes

[Literally Just a Contrarian]

She’s a fairly weak candidate. I think that she is actually overestimated in this forum.

She has a lack of appeal to the electorate and has zero charisma. And no, it has nothing to do with her race or gender. There are minority women out there who have actual charisma and can inspire turnout. Harris doesn’t have any of those qualities, she’s no Barack Obama.

Yeah, she's overestimated. She would 100% underperform Biden 2020 in terms of states (apart from NC), but I remember a thread which asked which Biden 2020 states Harris would lose, and no red avatars would name any.

She would underperform Biden in NC IMO. The only state she does as well or similar in is maybe GA but even then, I doubt it.

[Chips]

She could win but she's probably weaker than Biden.

[wbrocks67]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

Whaaat? There's no evidence Harris hurt Biden's electoral chances. The day she was announced as VP, but Biden broke records in small donations from all over the country. She also did well at the VP debate and helped to turn out black voters in GA.

LMAO no.

She came across as extremely whiny, similar to an annoying middle school English Teacher I’m sure we all had, and performed horribly, what are you talking about? There’s a reason the Biden campaign barely used her in the actual campaign itself.

Well we have your opinion, and then we have numerous pieces of empirical and actual evidence saying the opposite, so I think I'm gonna go with that. You're projecting your own personal feelings on what happened and it's not cute

[wbrocks67]

Harris is for sure weaker than Biden and has shown an inability to run a strong campaign. Her 2020 campaign was shockingly bad. That doesn't mean she has no shot (a la Trump 2016) but I'd far prefer running against her than Biden.

Her 2019 primary campaign literally has no bearing here. Nearly every single aspect and circumstance is different, for obvious reasons that shouldn't need to be explained.

[wbrocks67]

Harris' relative unpopularity is suggested in the national polling we have to date, she was -8 favorability in the most recent Economist/YouGov poll conducted May 1-4

Trump was -11, for comparison, with a similar number of respondents not having an opinion (8% vs 10%)

So no, believing Harris to be weak isn't some fiction invented by media or the GQP

That was a particularly GOP-y poll though. You're cherrypicking. I follow the YouGov/Economist polls nearly every week and that was a definite outlier. Most of the other ones prior to that for at least the past few months have had her either = or a few points positive.

[wbrocks67]

A forum composed of 95% white male posters believes 95% of white males are extremely "strong candidates" (see: Mark Kelly, Joe Biden, Ron DeSantis, John Fetterman, etc.) and that a non-white female is significantly less "electable" or that her campaign can be reduced to mere "identity politics." Color me surprised.

This post should be pinned on every sub forum in this entire place.

[Samof94]

Harris was literally responsible for turning what was supposed to be a landslide for her party into a close race last year, by turbocharging racist voter turnout. She is clearly weak.

That's ridiculous. It was a close race because polling was off and Trump has a unique appeal to low-turnout voters, Harris had nothing to do with it. Nobody voted for Trump because of Harris.

White evangelicals wouldn’t vote for a Black’s woman anyway.

[Adam Griffin]

The concerns I've observed boil down to two main issues:

1) Her electoral performances have been anywhere from mediocre to absolutely terrible in every prominent race in which she has been the candidate. In 2010 and 2014, she underperformed the average CA statewide D margin by double-digits.

Her 2016 and 2020 bids were obviously harder to compare in this regard, but given she was facing predominantly Democratic electorates in these contests - which should be more amenable to her than a national general electorate - it's arguably even worse that she had Jeb! levels of failure in '20 and won 60% in a D vs D Senate race in a state where Ds tend to win around 60% of the vote.

2) Sexism is a very real electoral handicap. It's an even bigger one than racism in my view (though Harris would obviously face both), and no, this isn't merely rooted in "muh Clinton". I really don't get the people who want to have their cake and eat it too on this subject; that these issues are very much real and affect every facet of life, but somehow (!) they are not an issue in electoral politics - and in fact, can be reversed & turned into advantages by running candidates who are female (and/or non-white).

Either sexism (and/or racism) are inherently institutional problems in society and therefore running women (and/or PoC) will have a negative electoral impact, or they're not problems and there's nothing about which to worry (or to gain electorally; a wash in net terms). I've always subscribed to the former. Obviously the net electoral effects can vary from region to region or state to state, but the overall verdict applies in national (and most state) contests.