Israeli forces storm and fire on Al Aqsa mosque

[President Johnson]

What I constantly ask myself is where Hamas is getting all the missiles from? Everything through little tunnels at the Egyptian border? Ships from certain regimes?

[Silent Hunter]

I think they build many of them using smuggled materials.

[Velasco]

Post removed by moderator.

I'm amazed to discover that, after having voiced he embraces ecofascism, Tender speaks openly of ethnic cleansing.

This quote deserves a place in the forum's annals

[Zinneke]

Post removed by moderator.

I'm amazed to discover that, after having voiced he embraces ecofascism, Tender speaks openly of ethnic cleansing.

This quote deserves a place in the forum's annals

Ethnic cleansing against arabs at least. To tender they are subhumans.

[Tender Branson]

Post removed by moderator.

I'm amazed to discover that, after having voiced he embraces ecofascism, Tender speaks openly of ethnic cleansing.

This quote deserves a place in the forum's annals

Ethnic cleansing against arabs at least. To tender they are subhumans.

No.

There are no subhumans.

I actually prefer either an Isratine/Palesrael or a gated Jewish community state.

Everything in between doesn’t work.

[afleitch]

Tender;

Warning.

Reign it in.

[Tender Branson]

Tender;

Warning.

Reign it in.

That’s all I had to say anyway about this topic.

Nothing will change in that region anyway.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

This is what happens when you remove Hussein whom kept Iran in check, Iran is the main antagonist now, instead of Hussein to Israel

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

Associated Press, Al Jazeera buildings were exploded by Israel. And yet we’re still going to be forced to hear by western media that this is a conflict between “radical” Palestinians and a “democratic” country.

Stop shilling for Hamas! They are the terrorists!


Furthermore, AP are literally fake news. I'm sorry for what happen to Al Jazeera, though.

[It’s so Joever]

Associated Press, Al Jazeera buildings were exploded by Israel. And yet we’re still going to be forced to hear by western media that this is a conflict between “radical” Palestinians and a “democratic” country.

Stop shilling for Hamas! They are the terrorists!


Furthermore, AP are literally fake news. I'm sorry for what happen to Al Jazeera, though.

“AP is fake news!” -Literal Kremlin troll.

It’s sad that RfromNJ also is anti-AP because they said something he disagreed with and misinterpreted.

Goes to confirm my long held theory Republicans are accelerationist communists fighting alongside Putin’s new red army.

Anyways, while it’s certainly not impossible that Hamas agents were operating in that building or area, the burden of proof is on IDF and until that is shown, any defenses for Bloody Bibi’s regime are baseless and on the same level as the Hamas apologist gaslighters.

At the very least, this is very suspicious, and warrants investigation.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

So just in case anyone here who didn't accept the Palestinian narrative wholesale before read leftist bs on the internet and does now, I'm here to remind that in 1947 the Palestinians refused to accept a map that was extremely fair for them and instead went on the offensive to try and destroy the Jews living here, who were mostly refugees escaping the holocaust or earlier anti-semitic persecution.

I wouldn't call the partition plan that put 400,000 Arabs in the Jewish state (45% of its population) "extremely fair", nor awarding it all the fertile agricultural land on the coastal plain and Galilee *as well as* the entire Negev desert for future Jewish settlement, relegating the Arab state to a minority of Palestine's land in the rocky central highlands. At any rate the partition plan was unenforceable and immediately sparked a tit for tat civil war between Jews and Arabs within the Mandate that the foreign Arab invasion was an intervention into, with the Yishuv already having launched offensives and taken territory over the partition line. Ben Gurion specifically had a pledge that Israel's borders would follow the partition plan struck from the new state's declaration of independence! In fact taking the longer view it was well understood by the prewar Zionist leadership that any partition of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states would be a vehicle for future territorial expansion that would make the latter state economically viable, militarily defensible and include Jerusalem, whatever initial territory was allotted.

But I also don't think this history lesson should have any moral bearing on the current conflict. The occupation of Gaza or the rights of the Palestinians in East Jerusalem won't be resolved by complaints about what happened in the founding of Israel generations ago now.  

[America Needs R'hllor]

So just in case anyone here who didn't accept the Palestinian narrative wholesale before read leftist bs on the internet and does now, I'm here to remind that in 1947 the Palestinians refused to accept a map that was extremely fair for them and instead went on the offensive to try and destroy the Jews living here, who were mostly refugees escaping the holocaust or earlier anti-semitic persecution.

I wouldn't call the partition plan that put 400,000 Arabs in the Jewish state (45% of its population) "extremely fair", nor awarding it all the fertile agricultural land on the coastal plain and Galilee *as well as* the entire Negev desert for future Jewish settlement, relegating the Arab state to a minority of Palestine's land in the rocky central highlands. At any rate the partition plan was unenforceable and immediately sparked a tit for tat civil war between Jews and Arabs within the Mandate that the foreign Arab invasion was an intervention into, with the Yishuv already having launched offensives and taken territory over the partition line. Ben Gurion specifically had a pledge that Israel's borders would follow the partition plan struck from the new state's declaration of independence! In fact taking the longer view it was well understood by the prewar Zionist leadership that any partition of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states would be a vehicle for future territorial expansion that would make the latter state economically viable, militarily defensible and include Jerusalem, whatever initial territory was allotted.

But I also don't think this history lesson should have any moral bearing on the current conflict. The occupation of Gaza or the rights of the Palestinians in East Jerusalem won't be resolved by complaints about what happened in the founding of Israel generations ago now.  

The map gave the Arab state much of Galilee (including where I live today), all of Judea and Samaria (including a complete control of areas around Jerusalem, the holiest site for Jews and only the third holiest for Muslims- a neutral Jerusalem surrounded by Palestine effectively meant a Palestinian Jerusalem because international forces are useless), and a large swath of plain land starting from the Ashdod area to Gaza. It's a fair map considering the population centers, and there was no way to fairly keep a purely Jewish country.

Remember- the Jews in Muslim countries started being violently persecuted around that time, and many remained under anti-semitic regimes in the USSR, so as far as I'm concerned there wasn't even enough space here for us.
But instead of discussing if the UN gave too much land to the Jewish refugees, how about not ignoring that the ones who started the offensive and didn't accept the plan were still the Arabs, and that their plan wasn't just territorial expansion but a cleansing of the area from Jews? We were fighting for our lives and yes, did some bad things, but in the end this whole thing was a story of Arab nationalism and Muslim fundamentalism trying to push out a "foreign" population of refugees.

This is my narrative which I firmly believe in, and you can not accept it of course. I'd like to live in peace here despite our different narratives, but the first term for everything is accepting the legitimacy of our existence here. We're here to stay, so are the Palestinians. If we don't learn to live together, we're all doomed. And hamas is a terrorist organization whose goal is to kill as many innocent Jews as possible to derail any possibility for peace. Leftists justifying them are taking the position that Jews have no legitimacy in Israel, and in practice anywhere.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

The map gave the Arab state much of Galilee (including where I live today), all of Judea and Samaria (including a complete control of areas around Jerusalem, the holiest site for Jews and only the third holiest for Muslims- a neutral Jerusalem surrounded by Palestine effectively meant a Palestinian Jerusalem because international forces are useless), and a large swath of plain land starting from the Ashdod area to Gaza

You can correct me, but a strip of coast plus what was largely the remote and hilly part of Galilee away from the Jordan Valley and Sea of Galilee where the agricultural economy of the region was based. As for Jerusalem, if one argues that international control was impossible then it's an admission that the partition plan was fundamentally unworkable and that a war over it was inevitable...

It's a fair map considering the population centers, and there was no way to fairly keep a purely Jewish country.

Yes, that was the problem. There was no fair way to create a Jewish state through partition that encompassed the entire Yishuv where it was as the plan tried to, because Jews owned less than 10% of the land of the Mandate and were clustered in towns and geographically-dispersed settlements with the rural Arab population between. So the partition required either putting hundreds of thousands of Arabs in a Jewish state they would rather fight than live under, or ethnic cleansing.

Remember- the Jews in Muslim countries started being violently persecuted around that time, and many remained under anti-semitic regimes in the USSR, so as far as I'm concerned there wasn't even enough space here for us.
But instead of discussing if the UN gave too much land to the Jewish refugees, how about not ignoring that the ones who started the offensive and didn't accept the plan were still the Arabs, and that their plan wasn't just territorial expansion but a cleansing of the area from Jews? We were fighting for our lives and yes, did some bad things, but in the end this whole thing was a story of Arab nationalism and Muslim fundamentalism trying to push out a "foreign" population of refugees.

As I've already pointed out, the foreign Arab states were intervening into what had already been a communal civil war in the Mandate of Palestine for almost 6 months. And yes, it was a story of Arab nationalism and fundamentalism trying to push out a "foreign" population. That was the story on both sides. That's not to make a value judgement but simply state that both sides in the war saw it as a zero sum conflict.

[America Needs R'hllor]

The map gave the Arab state much of Galilee (including where I live today), all of Judea and Samaria (including a complete control of areas around Jerusalem, the holiest site for Jews and only the third holiest for Muslims- a neutral Jerusalem surrounded by Palestine effectively meant a Palestinian Jerusalem because international forces are useless), and a large swath of plain land starting from the Ashdod area to Gaza

You can correct me, but a strip of coast plus what was largely the remote and hilly part of Galilee away from the Jordan Valley and Sea of Galilee where the agricultural economy of the region was based. As for Jerusalem, if one argues that international control was impossible then it's an admission that the partition plan was fundamentally unworkable and that a war over it was inevitable...

It's a fair map considering the population centers, and there was no way to fairly keep a purely Jewish country.

Yes, that was the problem. There was no fair way to create a Jewish state through partition that encompassed the entire Yishuv where it was as the plan tried to, because Jews owned less than 10% of the land of the Mandate and were clustered in towns and geographically-dispersed settlements with the rural Arab population between. So the partition required either putting hundreds of thousands of Arabs in a Jewish state they would rather fight than live under, or ethnic cleansing.

Remember- the Jews in Muslim countries started being violently persecuted around that time, and many remained under anti-semitic regimes in the USSR, so as far as I'm concerned there wasn't even enough space here for us.
But instead of discussing if the UN gave too much land to the Jewish refugees, how about not ignoring that the ones who started the offensive and didn't accept the plan were still the Arabs, and that their plan wasn't just territorial expansion but a cleansing of the area from Jews? We were fighting for our lives and yes, did some bad things, but in the end this whole thing was a story of Arab nationalism and Muslim fundamentalism trying to push out a "foreign" population of refugees.

As I've already pointed out, the foreign Arab states were intervening into what had already been a communal civil war in the Mandate of Palestine for almost 6 months. And yes, it was a story of Arab nationalism and fundamentalism trying to push out a "foreign" population. That was the story on both sides. That's not to make a value judgement but simply state that both sides in the war saw it as a zero sum conflict.

Sure, that's all fair criticism. The map wasn't perfect (in the case of Jerusalem, I don't think it means the war was inevitable- just that there would be almost no Jewish presence in our holiest site, a sad situation but one the yishuv was clearly willing to accept in exchange for independence) but it was pretty fair overall- the area the Arabs got in Galilee is the one where their population is concentrated, and I can say from living here that it's a beautiful area with a lot of agriculture. So is Judea and Samaria, and the strip of land from Gaza to Ashdod could also be a really good area. Of course, the problem arises when your government is just bad and doesn't develop these areas, but that doesn't make them unfair.

Overall, my point is that when people justly criticize Israel for current crimes (especially in Judea and Samaria- in Gaza it's completely unfair to leave Hamas without criticism even if it's right to criticize Israel too), they should be aware of the historical context. Israel wasn't always the strong force, it's a country built by refugees escaping persecution and genocide, not evil white colonialists. These refugees settled, with a lot of pushback, in lands owned by two Empires, not in a sovereign nation. The situation is, indeed, complex.

[Silent Hunter]

Jews have become Schrödinger's Whites. Whether they are white or not depends on the observer.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

I'd rather live under apartheid of "refugees escaping persecution and genocide" than under apartheid of "evil white colonialists". Can't deny that.

[GALeftist]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1394260581201371146

Hmm

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1394290575822757888

Also, very bad decision from the State Department. A ceasefire desperately needs to be reached, innocent people are dying needlessly.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

What I constantly ask myself is where Hamas is getting all the missiles from? Everything through little tunnels at the Egyptian border? Ships from certain regimes?

Egypt + [mostly?] homemade with Iranian help. Both Hamas and Iran became emboldened with Joe in office. Likewise, Israel.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/world/middleeast/gaza-rockets-hamas-israel.html
Gaza’s Rockets: A Replenished Arsenal That Vexes Israel
Despite a blockade, Palestinian militants have used help from Iran, ingenuity, Israeli-fired duds and even plumbing pipes to make thousands of rockets with increased range.

How have Gaza militants preserved or even grown their arsenal?

In the past, medium- and longer-range rockets were typically smuggled through tunnels along Gaza’s southern border with Egypt, and in some cases smuggled in parts, then assembled in Gaza. But in recent years, with Egypt making a more concerted effort to block and destroy the tunnels, smuggling whole rockets has become far more problematic. So Hamas and its affiliates in Gaza have developed their own production skills.

Michael Herzog, an Israel-based international fellow at The Washington Institute for Near East Policy and a retired brigadier general in the Israel Defense Forces, said Israeli military and intelligence officials are now far more concerned about the abilities of the militants to produce rockets they once had to import.

[...]

Who has helped Hamas and its allies achieve this capability?

The Gaza militants have openly attributed their success to help supplied by Iran, which Israel regards as its most potent foreign adversary. Iranian officials, too, are not shy about their relationship with Hamas.

[CumbrianLefty]

Jews have become Schrödinger's Whites. Whether they are white or not depends on the observer.

Arguably it was always thus.

[Tender Branson]

Why are there 2 threads now ?

Merge them.

[CumbrianLefty]

This thread is about the immediate events, the other designed for a wider discussion.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Also, very bad decision from the State Department. A ceasefire desperately needs to be reached, innocent people are dying needlessly.

A ceasefire is certainly desirable, but until the leaders on both sides desire it, there's not much point in trying to broker one.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

Also, very bad decision from the State Department. A ceasefire desperately needs to be reached, innocent people are dying needlessly.

A ceasefire is certainly desirable, but until the leaders on both sides desire it, there's not much point in trying to broker one.

US can, of course, put its pressure to make these leaders "desire" it. But, for better or worse, Biden seems to mostly keep Trump's isolationist direction. At least re: ME.

[Oregon Eagle Politics]

The cycle of hate.