"Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"
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  "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"
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Question: "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"
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Author Topic: "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences"  (Read 2296 times)
AGA
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« on: April 28, 2021, 05:22:43 PM »

Do you agree with the above quote?
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John Dule
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2021, 05:49:55 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.
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AGA
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2021, 05:57:00 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.
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John Dule
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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2021, 06:42:27 PM »
« Edited: December 06, 2021, 02:34:40 AM by Diversity Jurisdiction is Our Strength »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business doing something like that.
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bore
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2021, 08:29:27 PM »

There is a radio yerevan joke about this:

Quote
Our listeners asked us: “What is the difference between the Constitutions of the USA and USSR?” Both guarantee freedom of speech.”

Our answer: “Yes, but the Constitution of the USA also guarantees freedom after the speech.”


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AGA
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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2021, 09:22:22 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

What if it's a completely private college? Would it mean that college doesn't respect free speech?
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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2021, 09:54:11 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

What if it's a completely private college? Would it mean that college doesn't respect free speech?

Yes, and that is their right.

A lot of these institutions are putting their own credibility at risk by essentially allowing a heckler's veto of their admissions and other institutions.
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2021, 12:29:29 AM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

What if it's a completely private college? Would it mean that college doesn't respect free speech?

Do "completely private colleges" forgo the taxpayer-financed boondoggle that are Federally-guaranteed student loans? 

That's what I thought.....
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2021, 12:35:10 AM »

Anyway, this isn't really a statement you can "agree" or "disagree" with.  But those who employ this line of reasoning tacitly acknowledge their only fidelity is to some overly-legalistic interpretation of the First Amendment and not the actual values of tolerance and pluralism it exists to protect.
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AGA
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2021, 12:41:00 AM »

Anyway, this isn't really a statement you can "agree" or "disagree" with.  But those who employ this line of reasoning tacitly acknowledge their only fidelity is to some overly-legalistic interpretation of the First Amendment and not the actual values of tolerance and pluralism it exists to protect.

That's what I'm trying to get at. Do people here think free speech is only a legal concept or a broader ideal that can be suppressed by any entity? The quote doesn't make sense with the latter definition.
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Geoffrey Howe
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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2021, 04:08:26 AM »
« Edited: April 29, 2021, 04:13:28 AM by Geoffrey Howe »

Well what does 'consequences' mean? If, as John Dule has said, it means governmental restrictions, then likely not. If it means people thinking you a fool, then quite likely.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2021, 01:54:09 PM »

100% agree. Like in North Korea you're free to criticize Kim Jong Un but that doesn't mean you're free from consequences like spending the rest of your life in a labor camp or being strapped to a missile. Those "political dissidents" complaining about it need to check their privilege.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2021, 04:13:00 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?
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John Dule
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2021, 05:52:12 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2021, 10:40:29 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.
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Pericles
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2021, 11:07:04 PM »

It depends.
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John Dule
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2021, 12:00:05 AM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.

If someone is rejected from a school, they have no way of knowing why. 99.9% of the time it is because of a problem with their application. However, if someone is accepted at a school and then later receives a letter rescinding that acceptance, they must receive an explanation for why this happened.
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TiltsAreUnderrated
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2021, 08:52:26 AM »

One of the biggest problems with the culture war-related consequences is not that people are judged or that a judge wants to impose a strict social sentence, but that the judge can impose such a sentence to begin with. Employers should not be able to hire and fire as easily as they often do, regardless of whether or not they are motivated by cancel culture. Driving people to suicide over social media is also pretty appalling regardless of any political motivations behind it, and that is an imperative to teach safe engagement with the medium that can damage one's peace of mind.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2021, 03:37:14 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.

If someone is rejected from a school, they have no way of knowing why. 99.9% of the time it is because of a problem with their application. However, if someone is accepted at a school and then later receives a letter rescinding that acceptance, they must receive an explanation for why this happened.

So why is it problematic to rescind a bigoted student’s acceptance?
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John Dule
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2021, 06:02:36 PM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.

If someone is rejected from a school, they have no way of knowing why. 99.9% of the time it is because of a problem with their application. However, if someone is accepted at a school and then later receives a letter rescinding that acceptance, they must receive an explanation for why this happened.

So why is it problematic to rescind a bigoted student’s acceptance?

Why should the government be allowed to deny a service to someone just because they don't like their views? Can the city cut off your gas and water supply if they decide they don't agree with your position on abortion?
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2021, 12:45:37 AM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.

If someone is rejected from a school, they have no way of knowing why. 99.9% of the time it is because of a problem with their application. However, if someone is accepted at a school and then later receives a letter rescinding that acceptance, they must receive an explanation for why this happened.

So why is it problematic to rescind a bigoted student’s acceptance?

Why should the government be allowed to deny a service to someone just because they don't like their views? Can the city cut off your gas and water supply if they decide they don't agree with your position on abortion?

Universities that receive public funding are not "the government".

Also, what are you talking about? By this logic, we shouldn't be able to fire cops who are KKK members because "that would be not liking their views".
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John Dule
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2021, 12:52:38 AM »

Depends on what the consequences are. Social alienation? Sure. Government intervention? Absolutely not.

For example, getting a college acceptance rescinded because of a racist statement.

If it's an institution that takes government money, it has no business going something like that.

Why?

What's the difference between not accepting someone for being a racist and rescinding an acceptance for being racist?

Well, the first is a lot more difficult to prove than the second, for starters.

Is it? It seems like the only difference is the time when their racism was discovered.

If someone is rejected from a school, they have no way of knowing why. 99.9% of the time it is because of a problem with their application. However, if someone is accepted at a school and then later receives a letter rescinding that acceptance, they must receive an explanation for why this happened.

So why is it problematic to rescind a bigoted student’s acceptance?

Why should the government be allowed to deny a service to someone just because they don't like their views? Can the city cut off your gas and water supply if they decide they don't agree with your position on abortion?

Universities that receive public funding are not "the government".

Also, what are you talking about? By this logic, we shouldn't be able to fire cops who are KKK members because "that would be not liking their views".

Education is a basic function of government, and educational institutions that receive government funding should be held to the same standards that we would hold the government itself.

And I am talking about the citizens who are receiving the service, not the government bureaucrats who are providing it. Oh and also, a kid making a racist joke on social media is not the same as being a KKK member. So many things wrong with this post!
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politicallefty
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2021, 01:35:51 AM »

Freedom of speech means freedom of consequence from government action. The rights of the people according to the Constitution are first considered to be prohibitions against the government. In some cases, particularly in cases of statutory law, there are prohibitions on what businesses and private individuals can do. In the case of freedom of speech, it is a prohibition of the government to take action against an individual for exercising their right to freedom of speech.
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Geoffrey Howe
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2021, 03:19:46 AM »

Universities that receive public funding are not "the government".

Also, what are you talking about? By this logic, we shouldn't be able to fire cops who are KKK members because "that would be not liking their views".

From what I understand, schools and universities are held to the same constitutional standard as the states, hence for example Tinker v. Des Moines.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2021, 01:21:51 PM »

I'm sure we can all think of situations in which private-sector or civil-society "consequences" for unpopular speech are merited, and I'm sure we can all think of situations in which they are unmerited. In my experience most people who trot out this line do so in order to obscure the difference.
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