Is Israel or Palestine in the right?
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  Is Israel or Palestine in the right?
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Poll
Question: Who do you believe is in the right?
#1
Israel
 
#2
Palestine
 
#3
Neither
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 100

Author Topic: Is Israel or Palestine in the right?  (Read 3118 times)
afleitch
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2021, 04:04:43 AM »

The idea that Israel would respect Palestine 'if only it were a democracy' I think is wishful thinking.

Israel passively and at time actively abets a portion of it's citizenry to take land. Just take it. Farms, homes. That's a disfunctionality in the state psyche that transcends as well as undermimes the democratic system. If Palestine became an 'all liberal all the time' functioning democracy tomorrow would this still happen? Yes.

Liberal democracies, since decolonisation should not be expansionist.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2021, 08:48:24 AM »

The idea that Israel would respect Palestine 'if only it were a democracy' I think is wishful thinking.

That isn't what I was implying, although I have seen this take elsewhere.
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2021, 10:52:41 AM »

Neither is completely right.

Israel has a right to exist and is the only real democracy in the region, making it a critical ally of America. That said, Palestine should be granted full sovereignty and its remaining citizens in Israel be equally treated. Israel is wrong with their settlement policy, making the peace process incredibly difficult. Both sides are wrong by using violence to reach their goals. I support Israel's right to defend itsself from missile attacks though.
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afleitch
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2021, 11:35:13 AM »

The idea that Israel would respect Palestine 'if only it were a democracy' I think is wishful thinking.

That isn't what I was implying, although I have seen this take elsewhere.

It wasn't directly replying to you, just more of a general comment Smiley

It's the broader point that Israel gains nothing from Palestine being a democracy, which it has the power to help facilitate given that it's effectively a vassal state. Palestine 'kept down' to occasionally kick or use as diplomatic collateral is by design.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2021, 11:47:18 AM »

What's interesting is that a contributing factor to the current troubles is the attempt by some Jews to assert property ownership in East Jerusalem that was under Jordanian administration from 1949-1967 and has recently been annexed by Israel. In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

Of course Hamas was no doubt looking for any excuse to restart its rocket attacks.

The whole Middle East has been a series of examples proving the validity of the proposition that two wrongs don't make right.
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lfromnj
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2021, 11:55:59 AM »

I see this thread is going about as well as can be expected.

I agree with Dule, of course. Before the second or third round of elections I would have said Israel, barely, but since its main moral advantage over Palestine was being a more functional democracy, I've reluctantly stepped back from that assessment.

Is Israeli Democracy that bad yet?
It shows they can't unify under regular legislative disputes but overall were still willing to work together under an emergency. It could become a larger problem but excessive secure  elections isn't the worst issue for a country to have.
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Donerail
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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2021, 12:26:30 PM »

I see this thread is going about as well as can be expected.

I agree with Dule, of course. Before the second or third round of elections I would have said Israel, barely, but since its main moral advantage over Palestine was being a more functional democracy, I've reluctantly stepped back from that assessment.

Is Israeli Democracy that bad yet?
It shows they can't unify under regular legislative disputes but overall were still willing to work together under an emergency. It could become a larger problem but excessive secure  elections isn't the worst issue for a country to have.
Contra Nathan, I think the ongoing dysfunction has been a point in favor of Israel's democratic system. I am very skeptical of how "democratic" a country can claim to be when every political party of the majority ethnic group agrees to a cordon sanitaire around all parties representing its largest ethnic minority group. In that respect, the inclusion of Ra'am in coalition talks is quite heartening. Still voted Palestine in the poll.
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2021, 12:45:51 AM »

Arab citizens of Israel have full rights. But most Arabs choose to not take it and thus live with fewer rights.

Arab armies have historically sucked, and gotten their ass kicked every time they tried to invade Israel. So, the new strategy is swinging international public opinion against Israel.

I'm not super pro-Israel, but as a Jew the whole 'arabs will treat Jews nicely when they get Israel back' is bullsh**t. Israel may have a ton of issues, but the only other option (takeover by Arabs) means that one supports a second holocaust.

Two state solution is the only solution.
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Meclazine for Israel
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2021, 06:56:39 AM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2021, 10:13:42 PM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.

If you really think Israel would be anything like it currently is without U.S. military technical assistance, you're crazy.  I'll admit that currently support for Israel is fairly solid in the U.S. However, what had once been a solidly bipartisan position has become ever more partisan.

Yes, so long as it's just Israel versus the Palestinians, Israel doesn't have much to worry about. But the idea that the Arabs will permanently remain disunited and militarily inferior to Israel is ludicrous and not supported by history. Given current Israeli policies, it's basically a question of when, not if, the State of Israel goes the way of the Crusader States a millennium ago. Israel is likely to last until at least the 22nd century.
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theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2021, 11:10:52 PM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.

If you really think Israel would be anything like it currently is without U.S. military technical assistance, you're crazy.  I'll admit that currently support for Israel is fairly solid in the U.S. However, what had once been a solidly bipartisan position has become ever more partisan.

Yes, so long as it's just Israel versus the Palestinians, Israel doesn't have much to worry about. But the idea that the Arabs will permanently remain disunited and militarily inferior to Israel is ludicrous and not supported by history. Given current Israeli policies, it's basically a question of when, not if, the State of Israel goes the way of the Crusader States a millennium ago. Israel is likely to last until at least the 22nd century.

Militarily, you are right. But Israel has one trick up its sleeve.

You know, nukes. As long as the Arab states don't have them, Israel is good. And, Israel was militarily outmatched in the 1948 war, but won. Arab armies and politicians are plagued with corruption, and that won't change anytime soon.


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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2021, 02:31:49 AM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.

If you really think Israel would be anything like it currently is without U.S. military technical assistance, you're crazy.  I'll admit that currently support for Israel is fairly solid in the U.S. However, what had once been a solidly bipartisan position has become ever more partisan.

Yes, so long as it's just Israel versus the Palestinians, Israel doesn't have much to worry about. But the idea that the Arabs will permanently remain disunited and militarily inferior to Israel is ludicrous and not supported by history. Given current Israeli policies, it's basically a question of when, not if, the State of Israel goes the way of the Crusader States a millennium ago. Israel is likely to last until at least the 22nd century.

Militarily, you are right. But Israel has one trick up its sleeve.

You know, nukes. As long as the Arab states don't have them, Israel is good. And, Israel was militarily outmatched in the 1948 war, but won. Arab armies and politicians are plagued with corruption, and that won't change anytime soon.

Just because it won't change soon doesn't mean it won't change.  The idea that the Arabs won't ever gain nukes is ludicrous, and Israel is far more vulnerable to any potential nuclear exchange.
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theflyingmongoose
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2021, 04:37:05 PM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.

If you really think Israel would be anything like it currently is without U.S. military technical assistance, you're crazy.  I'll admit that currently support for Israel is fairly solid in the U.S. However, what had once been a solidly bipartisan position has become ever more partisan.

Yes, so long as it's just Israel versus the Palestinians, Israel doesn't have much to worry about. But the idea that the Arabs will permanently remain disunited and militarily inferior to Israel is ludicrous and not supported by history. Given current Israeli policies, it's basically a question of when, not if, the State of Israel goes the way of the Crusader States a millennium ago. Israel is likely to last until at least the 22nd century.

Militarily, you are right. But Israel has one trick up its sleeve.

You know, nukes. As long as the Arab states don't have them, Israel is good. And, Israel was militarily outmatched in the 1948 war, but won. Arab armies and politicians are plagued with corruption, and that won't change anytime soon.

Just because it won't change soon doesn't mean it won't change.  The idea that the Arabs won't ever gain nukes is ludicrous, and Israel is far more vulnerable to any potential nuclear exchange.

What did we do to Iraq when we thought they had WMD's? Also, mutually assured distruction.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2021, 07:28:02 PM »

In order to prevail, they either have to assert that there is such a thing as a general "right to return" or that Jews have property rights that Arabs don't. I can't see either assertion as being in Israel's long term interest. Acknowledging a right of return would seriously impact the Jewish nature of Israel. Conversely, making explicit the concept of Arabs having fewer rights in Israel makes more likely the possibility of Israel losing what little international support it has and puts in serious jeopardy its recent efforts to normalize relations with the Arab states.

You are correct up until the last sentence.

Israel actually needs little international support and what it does have is pretty solid.

Whilst ever Palestinian military activists carry on like the Benny Hill Show, israel will obtain legitimacy to defend itself more vigorously and make their expanded real estate goals a reality.

Bethlehem, here we come.

If you really think Israel would be anything like it currently is without U.S. military technical assistance, you're crazy.  I'll admit that currently support for Israel is fairly solid in the U.S. However, what had once been a solidly bipartisan position has become ever more partisan.

Yes, so long as it's just Israel versus the Palestinians, Israel doesn't have much to worry about. But the idea that the Arabs will permanently remain disunited and militarily inferior to Israel is ludicrous and not supported by history. Given current Israeli policies, it's basically a question of when, not if, the State of Israel goes the way of the Crusader States a millennium ago. Israel is likely to last until at least the 22nd century.

Militarily, you are right. But Israel has one trick up its sleeve.

You know, nukes. As long as the Arab states don't have them, Israel is good. And, Israel was militarily outmatched in the 1948 war, but won. Arab armies and politicians are plagued with corruption, and that won't change anytime soon.

Just because it won't change soon doesn't mean it won't change.  The idea that the Arabs won't ever gain nukes is ludicrous, and Israel is far more vulnerable to any potential nuclear exchange.

What did we do to Iraq when we thought they had WMD's? Also, mutually assured destruction.

Israel is a lot easier to destroy. It would only take a few purchased nuclear weapons (supposedly to give Arabs a mutually assured destruction capability to prevent the use of Israeli nukes, or even actually for purposes of MAD) for the Arabs to have enough and they would be no threat to whatever major power sold them.  If you don't think a hostile Arab power would be willing to undertake a nuclear exchange with Israel, then please explain why Hamas engaging in their idiotic rocket attacks the past few weeks would argue against a hostile Arab power being willing to hazard a nuclear exchange.
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Chips
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2021, 10:47:42 PM »

Glad that the ceasefire happened.
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KoopaDaQuick 🇵🇸
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2021, 10:53:47 PM »

The actual answer is obviously much more complicated than this, but since we live in a country where "nuance" is a four-letter word I'll just say neither.

One of the top 5 Dule posts.

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John Dule
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2021, 03:51:07 AM »

The actual answer is obviously much more complicated than this, but since we live in a country where "nuance" is a four-letter word I'll just say neither.

One of the top 5 Dule posts.

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True. I'll surely never match this level of wit.
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KoopaDaQuick 🇵🇸
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2021, 06:09:45 PM »

The actual answer is obviously much more complicated than this, but since we live in a country where "nuance" is a four-letter word I'll just say neither.

One of the top 5 Dule posts.

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True. I'll surely never match this level of wit.

I 100% agree. A post of yours with wit is harder to find than someone at a Paul Simon concert with a good taste in music.
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MarkD
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2021, 09:15:24 PM »

I lean rather strongly towards Israel, but I confess that I don't know enough about how the government of Israel actually treat Palestinians to be completely confident about my support for Israel.
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John Dule
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2021, 09:24:33 PM »

The actual answer is obviously much more complicated than this, but since we live in a country where "nuance" is a four-letter word I'll just say neither.

One of the top 5 Dule posts.

low bar

True. I'll surely never match this level of wit.

I 100% agree. A post of yours with wit is harder to find than someone at a Paul Simon concert with a good taste in music.

Pro tip: I find it often pays to conceal insults using humor and/or sarcasm. This helps avoid the perception that I am actually seething with impotent rage.
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West_Midlander
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« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2021, 11:28:58 AM »

Israel, mostly.
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