Should the Labor Party disband?
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  Should the Labor Party disband?
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Author Topic: Should the Labor Party disband?  (Read 3438 times)
Harvey Updyke Jr🌹
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2021, 08:24:56 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2021, 08:27:39 PM »

We also just had a presidential election with insanely high turnout that came down to 2-3 votes.
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S019
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« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

Yeah this is the only real answer, I've long said if the right wants to win, they need to move left, a party that's neoliberal on economics, and comes out in favor of moderately pro choice and pro gun control positions, might make some inroads among moderates on the left. Maybe even a rebranding of the name entirely something like "Liberal Conservative party," "Liberal Party," "Liberal Democratic Party" all could be good names. If you want to narrow in on a specific type of moderate conservatism (i.e. ignore the guidelines earlier in my post) then "One Nation Tory Party" or "Rockefeller Republican Party" could also work.
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Continential
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« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2021, 08:31:02 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

Yeah this is the only real answer, I've long said if the right wants to win, they need to move left, a party that's neoliberal on economics, and comes out in favor of moderately pro choice and pro gun control positions, might make some inroads among moderates on the left.
What moderates could they flip, and why isn't the DA doing well, considering that those views are in the DA?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2021, 08:47:55 PM »

Labor Party has disbanded.

All of its former members have now joined the Labour Party

New Labour, old danger!!! Tongue
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2021, 08:48:08 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

Yeah this is the only real answer, I've long said if the right wants to win, they need to move left, a party that's neoliberal on economics, and comes out in favor of moderately pro choice and pro gun control positions, might make some inroads among moderates on the left.
What moderates could they flip, and why isn't the DA doing well, considering that those views are in the DA?
I think MB already answered this in the other thread. Tongue
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Harvey Updyke Jr🌹
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« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2021, 09:54:25 PM »

Labor Party has disbanded.

All of its former members have now joined the Labour Party

New Labour, old danger!!! Tongue

https://youtu.be/aMSCITZB7ws
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Leinad
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« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2021, 10:12:27 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

Yeah this is the only real answer, I've long said if the right wants to win, they need to move left, a party that's neoliberal on economics, and comes out in favor of moderately pro choice and pro gun control positions, might make some inroads among moderates on the left. Maybe even a rebranding of the name entirely something like "Liberal Conservative party," "Liberal Party," "Liberal Democratic Party" all could be good names. If you want to narrow in on a specific type of moderate conservatism (i.e. ignore the guidelines earlier in my post) then "One Nation Tory Party" or "Rockefeller Republican Party" could also work.

Not sure how many moderate Labor voters that would pull over without alienating a large chunk of the party. Which would maybe put them in the middle of a three-party system (likely to end up as the UK's edition of your third name, albeit perhaps with some relative success if they can hold onto "main street Feds"), but I doubt it's effectiveness at winning a majority in a two-party system.

See, in the pre-Trump era, lots of Feds would be defined in RL terms as "moderate" or "libertarian," with only a few as "hard right" and some more in between/idiosyncratic. Post-Trump what is considered "hard right" is more mainstream, secular, and edgy so it's much more common on the forum than the likes of Classic/Ben/JCL were during the mid-2010s; meanwhile, libertarianism has withered away even more than it already was (hi) and the wishy-washy of the moderates either turned hot or cold when the mask came off US political discourse.

TL;DR: there is a wider gulf in the factions, this wouldn't work.
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S019
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« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2021, 10:41:27 PM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

Yeah this is the only real answer, I've long said if the right wants to win, they need to move left, a party that's neoliberal on economics, and comes out in favor of moderately pro choice and pro gun control positions, might make some inroads among moderates on the left. Maybe even a rebranding of the name entirely something like "Liberal Conservative party," "Liberal Party," "Liberal Democratic Party" all could be good names. If you want to narrow in on a specific type of moderate conservatism (i.e. ignore the guidelines earlier in my post) then "One Nation Tory Party" or "Rockefeller Republican Party" could also work.

Not sure how many moderate Labor voters that would pull over without alienating a large chunk of the party. Which would maybe put them in the middle of a three-party system (likely to end up as the UK's edition of your third name, albeit perhaps with some relative success if they can hold onto "main street Feds"), but I doubt it's effectiveness at winning a majority in a two-party system.

See, in the pre-Trump era, lots of Feds would be defined in RL terms as "moderate" or "libertarian," with only a few as "hard right" and some more in between/idiosyncratic. Post-Trump what is considered "hard right" is more mainstream, secular, and edgy so it's much more common on the forum than the likes of Classic/Ben/JCL were during the mid-2010s; meanwhile, libertarianism has withered away even more than it already was (hi) and the wishy-washy of the moderates either turned hot or cold when the mask came off US political discourse.

TL;DR: there is a wider gulf in the factions, this wouldn't work.

I'll note from 1997 to 2010, the Lib Dems were a pretty serious party. What killed them was the coalition with the Tories as they still drew support from the left, but given Labour needed a ridiculous coalition of chaos of Plaid, SDLP, and SNP, and likely promising independence referendums to at least one, and possibly all three, and how Gordon Brown had suffered among the worst losses for a Labour leader in an election (something like 90 seats), the writing was on the wall, and another election would've probably been even worse for Labor. Obviously continuing with the UK analogy, in this case the Tories are totally eliminated, and the Lib Dems suck up all their votes, then ofc the 2010 coalition never happens, the Lib Dems maintain their base and the Tories vote reluctantly for the Lib Dems due to a lack of right wing parties.

For instance, just looking at the February results, I can confidently say that a more moderate candidate would have won a few more voters and won the election. The goal would be for the Feds to peel off New Democrat or DLC types in the Labor Party, which is plausible with this path for the right.
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Continential
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« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2021, 10:44:59 PM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?
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S019
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« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2021, 10:49:29 PM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?

Idk, but a more moderate candidate would have also held the right wing defections that the right lost in Feb 2020 which is enough to win them the Presidency. A brand new party system would bring a lot of questions that we don't have answers to.
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YE
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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2021, 10:53:29 PM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?

Idk, but a more moderate candidate would have also held the right wing defections that the right lost in Feb 2020 which is enough to win them the Presidency. A brand new party system would bring a lot of questions that we don't have answers to.

If you can’t name specific voters to a question like this, then it’s probably no one. This isn’t RL politics to the extent RL politics work this way.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2021, 12:35:55 AM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?

Idk, but a more moderate candidate would have also held the right wing defections that the right lost in Feb 2020 which is enough to win them the Presidency. A brand new party system would bring a lot of questions that we don't have answers to.

If you can’t name specific voters to a question like this, then it’s probably no one. This isn’t RL politics to the extent RL politics work this way.

Like Joe McCarthy he speaks of lists of travelers but ever fails to produce the the names so often alluded to and hinted at. Perhaps it is just his shopping list or the receipt from the grocery store he is frantically waving about, we may never know.
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Pericles
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« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2021, 12:46:16 AM »

YT did blow it given he would have won clearly if he'd just kept the Ninja voters. The Federalists either  need someone who can appeal to both discord and forum voters eg dfw, but they don't have that right now. So the second option is to try out their respectable forum vote winner candidate at the top, and their discord friendship vote winner as VP. It worked for Yankee/dfw, but that was a different time and even that ticket lost to Labor once.

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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2021, 12:47:47 AM »

It's kind of amazing how right-wingers think dissolving Labor would actually improve their prospects. LOL.

All you have to do is look at the first months following the last Duopoly Dissolution, but for those too lazy to care about history: what do you think the aggregate of left-wing voters will do if there is no bogeyman remaining that hurt their fee-fees?

I'll tell you: virtually every D avatar and left-leaning voter will ultimately preference a left-leaning candidate over a right-leaning one, instead of the relatively consistent and measurable number of them since 2013 preferencing right-wingers over Laborites because we were just too good at the game and/or didn't put up with their meandering nonsense. Without the bogeyman, no actual left-of-center voter will have a reason to vote for a right-winger (unlike now).

Let's make it simple for the dullards: the existence of the Labor Party has increased opportunities (measured by % performance) for the Right over the past decade rather than harming them, while arguably handicapping those same opportunities for the Left at-large. In years past, it was because we had a hard-left ideology that alienated moderates. In recent years, it's more due to the gradual and predictable build-up of resentment among those who didn't want to be part of a machine or have some other personal beef toward us.

Take that away and the Left wins every national election going forward by double-digits without trying.



This of course ignores the fact that whether it was a double dissolution of the duopoly or (especially) a sole dissolution of Labor, the duopoly would be back in full-force in 6 months tops. The dynamics that made it take a year for the duopoly to return after the last Dissolution are far weaker today for a variety of reasons.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2021, 01:27:08 AM »

It's kind of amazing how right-wingers think dissolving Labor would actually improve their prospects. LOL.

All you have to do is look at the first months following the last Duopoly Dissolution, but for those too lazy to care about history: what do you think the aggregate of left-wing voters will do if there is no bogeyman remaining that hurt their fee-fees?

I'll tell you: virtually every D avatar and left-leaning voter will ultimately preference a left-leaning candidate over a right-leaning one, instead of the relatively consistent and measurable number of them since 2013 preferencing right-wingers over Laborites because we were just too good at the game and/or didn't put up with their meandering nonsense. Without the bogeyman, no actual left-of-center voter will have a reason to vote for a right-winger (unlike now).

Let's make it simple for the dullards: the existence of the Labor Party has increased opportunities (measured by % performance) for the Right over the past decade rather than harming them, while arguably handicapping those same opportunities for the Left at-large. In years past, it was because we had a hard-left ideology that alienated moderates. In recent years, it's more due to the gradual and predictable build-up of resentment among those who didn't want to be part of a machine or have some other personal beef toward us.

Take that away and the Left wins every national election going forward by double-digits without trying.



This of course ignores the fact that whether it was a double dissolution of the duopoly or (especially) a sole dissolution of Labor, the duopoly would be back in full-force in 6 months tops. The dynamics that made it take a year for the duopoly to return after the last Dissolution are far weaker today for a variety of reasons.

This obvious reality is not absent on the right, its mostly desperation clouding judgment.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2021, 02:49:48 AM »

Seriously, if the opposition party isn't winning, perhaps lurch to the left instead of doubling down on conservatism?

It is worth noting Feds ran Koopa/RC first and Siren/Muaddib later and both with absolutely miserable results (I still hold the position that Feb 20 was an underperformance and a skilled player could have beaten Labor that election and even a less skilled campaign could have come close)
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2021, 03:00:56 AM »

Honestly I will also note this was a fairly good result for the right. The House PV was what, 53-46?

Pretty sure that is still the 3rd best House PV* after Aug 20 (sole Labor defeat in this dominance period) and Dec 20 (tie on a technicality, I think Labor propped up Poirot around the end)

I realize losing close elections hurts but unless the Feds plan on collapsing in the next few months like they did between Jun and Oct 2019, how hard can it be to win the final few points?

*: Yes this was actually slightly closer than Feb 21! House PV for Feb 21 was 54-46. Of course YT did better than that

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Pericles
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« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2021, 04:59:08 AM »

I also believe YT would have won if he hadn't made several dumb statements about real-life politics that angered the left-wing voters he needed to win. He needlessly gave me material that I exploited to the absolute maximum. The right-wing nominee might not need to be a Biden supporter, but they should avoid saying stuff where the Labor Party can find it that left-wingers would see as crazy or showing they're on the other side. Or ideally, just be the kind of right-winger that's acceptable to left-wingers-fortunately for the Federalists those people are disproportionately represented on Atlas.
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S019
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« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2021, 09:27:42 AM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?

Idk, but a more moderate candidate would have also held the right wing defections that the right lost in Feb 2020 which is enough to win them the Presidency. A brand new party system would bring a lot of questions that we don't have answers to.

If you can’t name specific voters to a question like this, then it’s probably no one. This isn’t RL politics to the extent RL politics work this way.

Like Joe McCarthy he speaks of lists of travelers but ever fails to produce the the names so often alluded to and hinted at. Perhaps it is just his shopping list or the receipt from the grocery store he is frantically waving about, we may never know.

Please do not compare this to Joe McCarthy. Also as others said if there was a more moderate nominee who didn't voice support for toxic third rail policies, the right would've won in February. Rebranding as the Lib Dems could also allow for the right to attract center left/center zombie voters from the forum as well as defections from Labor.
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Leinad
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« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2021, 11:37:09 AM »

Having more crossover appeal would help the Feds, but that =/= rebranding as a purely centrist/center-left party.

Quite a few voters would find that appalling, and while they would like the idea of winning they would see it pointless to "win" with policies so far from their own. Not a dig--the same thing would happen with myself and others in the Peace/Lab alliance if Labor rebranded to be center/center-right and gave themselves some generic name like "Conservative People's Alliance" or "National Republican Union" or "Jesus' Centrist Jamboree" or whatever.

TL;DR: dfw didn't change his username to "dfwliberalismlover"
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2021, 05:39:29 PM »

This is such a strange thread. Why are we comparing fake elections between "citizens" who all know each other to UK politics, especially now that we've all more or less cynically decided that winning elections is less about appeal and more about PMing zombies?

If anything, being President of Atlasia is like being the mayor of a small town. Not even that; the president of a frat house.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2021, 11:49:47 AM »

Who are those New Democrat/DLC types that a moderate could have flipped?

Idk, but a more moderate candidate would have also held the right wing defections that the right lost in Feb 2020 which is enough to win them the Presidency. A brand new party system would bring a lot of questions that we don't have answers to.

If you can’t name specific voters to a question like this, then it’s probably no one. This isn’t RL politics to the extent RL politics work this way.

Like Joe McCarthy he speaks of lists of travelers but ever fails to produce the the names so often alluded to and hinted at. Perhaps it is just his shopping list or the receipt from the grocery store he is frantically waving about, we may never know.

Please do not compare this to Joe McCarthy. Also as others said if there was a more moderate nominee who didn't voice support for toxic third rail policies, the right would've won in February. Rebranding as the Lib Dems could also allow for the right to attract center left/center zombie voters from the forum as well as defections from Labor.

There is a vast gulf between not lobbing hand grenades that alienate certain voters and remaking yourself into Nick Clegg. We would lose 30 people instantly and still not get Tim Turner's vote.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2021, 01:34:57 PM »

This is such a strange thread. Why are we comparing fake elections between "citizens" who all know each other to UK politics, especially now that we've all more or less cynically decided that winning elections is less about appeal and more about PMing zombies?
Not only that, why are we suggesting that emulating the Liberal Democrats is a strategy for electoral success? I think it should have been pretty clear that nobody likes these "rich man's centrist party" types and nobody wants to vote for them.
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« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2021, 03:13:02 PM »
« Edited: April 30, 2021, 03:16:09 PM by Speak No Evil for one month »

This is such a strange thread. Why are we comparing fake elections between "citizens" who all know each other to UK politics, especially now that we've all more or less cynically decided that winning elections is less about appeal and more about PMing zombies?
Not only that, why are we suggesting that emulating the Liberal Democrats is a strategy for electoral success? I think it should have been pretty clear that nobody likes these "rich man's centrist party" types and nobody wants to vote for them.

Well...



...sometimes.
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