Which of these should be banned for minors?
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  Which of these should be banned for minors?
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Poll
Question: ?
#1
Transgender surgery
 
#2
Hormone Therapy
 
#3
Puberty Blockers
 
#4
Transgender affirming therapy with a counselor
 
#5
Gay Conversion Therapy
 
#6
NOTA
 
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Total Voters: 123

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Author Topic: Which of these should be banned for minors?  (Read 1443 times)
lfromnj
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« on: March 31, 2021, 08:36:43 PM »

This should be interesting in light of recent threads.
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PSOL
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2021, 08:57:31 PM »

Only conversion therapy, as its shown to be ineffective and cruel toward innate human nature.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2021, 09:17:08 PM »

Only conversion therapy, as its shown to be ineffective and cruel toward innate human nature.
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2021, 09:24:22 PM »

Voted for one and five.
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President of the civil service full of trans activists
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2021, 09:26:45 PM »

Surgery and conversion therapy, but especially the latter. Surgery isn't as important because you have to be very persistent and very lucky to get that far before the age of majority. Between researcher's recommendations of not starting HRT until age 16 (between 12 and 16, puberty blockers are recommended instead) and the one-year HRT requirement to undergo surgery, alongside each surgeon's average wait time (seeing as you can't just waltz into a surgeon's office and demand that they perform surgery on you), it's more of a formality to coddle cisgender activists. Of course, that won't stop them, but...
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Skunk
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2021, 09:49:39 PM »

Voted only for conversion therapy because "transgender surgery" is incredibly vague. I assume you mean bottom surgery, in which case I'd agree that bottom surgery shouldn't be performed on minors, but other surgeries (facial feminization, trachial shaves, top surgery) shouldn't be banned.
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SWE
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2021, 10:00:38 PM »

Gay conversion therapy
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2021, 10:06:04 PM »
« Edited: March 31, 2021, 10:31:43 PM by Alben Barkley »

All except (non-gay conversion) therapy. However counselors shouldn’t just automatically “affirm” without considering that there can be (and often are) other things causing distress in youth that apparent gender dysphoria can be a symptom of rather than the real root cause of, and not rush to affirmation and transition the moment a kid says they think they might be trans.

I mean hell, this seems like common sense to me. Adolescence is a time of raging hormones, confusion, figuring out your identity, etc. And now that transgender people are more prominent than ever, is it really so hard to believe a teen could get fixated on the possibility that they are trans without really being trans? I mean teens are such immature, undeveloped, impulsive, angsty and conflicted messes that we don’t trust them to drink, rent cars (drive at all if under 16), take out loans, get married, or do jobs much more complex than taking McDonald’s orders. Why then should we trust that a teenager “knows” they are trans without question? Let alone perform medical procedures on them based on how they say they feel?

It’s certainly true that many really are dysphoric, I don’t doubt it. But therapists should (and should be allowed to) approach each case with an open mind, not automatically assume the patient’s self-diagnosis is correct. Some research suggests that, especially  in the case of teenage girls, many may feel social pressure to transition if others in their friend groups do. I don’t see why this idea is so hard to accept for some people, it seems logical to me and could explain the sudden explosion of these cases. I don’t buy that it’s entirely a natural phenomenon.

As for the other stuff, it’s just not true that puberty blockers and hormones are harmless and fully reversible. The truth is we know little about their long-term effects as they have not been used in this way and on this scale for long enough to do so. We do know hormones risk sterility and other health complications. There’s also an ongoing controversy about the safety of Lupron, a leading drug used to block puberty, and unknown long-term consequences for the disruption of a critical natural biological process at such a young age. I don’t know why everyone just jumps on board with these pretty dramatic and experimental medical treatments as if they are no big deal.

 Surgery should be a no-brainer. Kids should NOT be chopping their tits/dicks off. Period. Just insane to even contemplate. It’s a risky procedure with severe lifelong effects even when it goes as planned. It also DEFINITELY causes sterility for “bottom surgery” at least. And if there’s any risk at all kids could regret it, man, what a nightmare it would be to come to that realization with no way to reverse it. Simply not worth it.
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 08:37:21 AM »

Well what do you know, the British NHS just came out with a report saying the quality of evidence for the effectiveness of using puberty blockers and hormones on kids is “very low.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56601386

Specifically note:

Quote
"Any potential benefits of gender-affirming hormones must be weighed against the largely unknown long-term safety profile of these treatments in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria," NICE said.
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HisGrace
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2021, 11:43:21 AM »

All except transgender affirming therapy. Conversion therapy should be illegal in general and minors should not be cosmetically altering their bodies like that.
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2021, 12:09:39 PM »

All except transgender affirming therapy. Conversion therapy should be illegal in general and minors should not be cosmetically altering their bodies like that.

Transgender-affirming surgery is not cosmetic.
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they don't love you like i love you
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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2021, 12:35:27 PM »

Voted for #1 and #5, with #2 potentially depending on if it's irreversible or not. Basically anything irreversible should not be allowed.
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progressive85
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2021, 12:44:17 PM »

Accidentally voted for NOTA but I strongly support a complete ban on conversion therapy of LGBTQ kids.
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S019
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2021, 02:19:06 PM »

Only conversion therapy, as its shown to be ineffective and cruel toward innate human nature.
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Sol
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2021, 09:16:56 PM »

All except (non-gay conversion) therapy. However counselors shouldn’t just automatically “affirm” without considering that there can be (and often are) other things causing distress in youth that apparent gender dysphoria can be a symptom of rather than the real root cause of, and not rush to affirmation and transition the moment a kid says they think they might be trans.

I mean hell, this seems like common sense to me. Adolescence is a time of raging hormones, confusion, figuring out your identity, etc. And now that transgender people are more prominent than ever, is it really so hard to believe a teen could get fixated on the possibility that they are trans without really being trans? I mean teens are such immature, undeveloped, impulsive, angsty and conflicted messes that we don’t trust them to drink, rent cars (drive at all if under 16), take out loans, get married, or do jobs much more complex than taking McDonald’s orders. Why then should we trust that a teenager “knows” they are trans without question? Let alone perform medical procedures on them based on how they say they feel?

It’s certainly true that many really are dysphoric, I don’t doubt it. But therapists should (and should be allowed to) approach each case with an open mind, not automatically assume the patient’s self-diagnosis is correct. Some research suggests that, especially  in the case of teenage girls, many may feel social pressure to transition if others in their friend groups do. I don’t see why this idea is so hard to accept for some people, it seems logical to me and could explain the sudden explosion of these cases. I don’t buy that it’s entirely a natural phenomenon.

As for the other stuff, it’s just not true that puberty blockers and hormones are harmless and fully reversible. The truth is we know little about their long-term effects as they have not been used in this way and on this scale for long enough to do so. We do know hormones risk sterility and other health complications. There’s also an ongoing controversy about the safety of Lupron, a leading drug used to block puberty, and unknown long-term consequences for the disruption of a critical natural biological process at such a young age. I don’t know why everyone just jumps on board with these pretty dramatic and experimental medical treatments as if they are no big deal.

 Surgery should be a no-brainer. Kids should NOT be chopping their tits/dicks off. Period. Just insane to even contemplate. It’s a risky procedure with severe lifelong effects even when it goes as planned. It also DEFINITELY causes sterility for “bottom surgery” at least. And if there’s any risk at all kids could regret it, man, what a nightmare it would be to come to that realization with no way to reverse it. Simply not worth it.

me whenever I see an Alben Barkley post on trans issues
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Cokeland Saxton
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2021, 09:44:24 AM »

Conversion therapy is inhumane and should be banned
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Nightcore Nationalist
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2021, 10:06:37 AM »

AOTA
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 10:42:22 AM »

#1 and #2 definitely.

#3 gets some added nuance because the suppression of puberty in trans youth is not actually an FDA-approved use for Supprelin and Lupron (the most commonly prescribed puberty blockers.)  Restricting off-label use of a drug is a can of worms I'd rather not open; however, I don't believe puberty delay or suppression should be considered best practice for trans youth.  It is important that kids, both trans and cis, undergo the physical and psychological changes associated with puberty to develop a fuller sense of their (gender) identity.   

#4 and #5 are First Amendment issues.  Categorically prohibiting an otherwise allowable, mostly unregulated form of therapy (i.e., "talk therapy" or CBT) on the basis that it is being used for gender affirmation/gay conversion is not a content-neutral regulation of speech.
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Person Man
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 10:44:58 AM »

Anything where there is clear and convincing evidence that the treatment would be irreversible or that there is a lack of clear and convincing evidence that the treatment is effective.
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America Needs R'hllor
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 12:09:13 PM »

34% of the voters on this poll who voted for puberty blockers don't actually care about the children- they just want to see transgenders of any age suffer. Sad and cruel.
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John Dule
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 01:41:49 PM »

Voted only for conversion therapy because "transgender surgery" is incredibly vague. I assume you mean bottom surgery, in which case I'd agree that bottom surgery shouldn't be performed on minors, but other surgeries (facial feminization, trachial shaves, top surgery) shouldn't be banned.

Idk, I think all forms of plastic surgery should be banned for minors. That includes tattoos.
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Xing
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 01:46:45 PM »

Just surgery and conversion therapy.
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Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 07:12:04 PM »

Just surgery and conversion therapy. The second one is obvious, as parents can and often do force their children to attend these. The surgery has fewer issues of parents forcing children to do so, but is basically irreversible. That decision should be for the person to make when they are an adult.

Hormone blockers and other non-permanent treatments are okay, as they can slow things down while people make a decision (and I'm a real Republican, and I support people's rights to do whatever).
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 11:46:19 AM »
« Edited: April 09, 2021, 11:50:48 AM by tack50 »

1 and 5. I'd also ban hormones for anyone under the age of 16; though that seems to be common practice nowadays in any case.

I'd also require some sort of psychological report to access puberty blockers; at least until more research gets done on their safety and their long term consequences. Basically to make sure the psychological damage from not taking them would be greater than the physical damage from taking them.

If in 5-10 years time it turns out they are perfectly fine; lift that restriction. If it turns out they have very negative effects; keep it.

In my view; while being "reversible" is a good indicator it can be insufficient depending on the specifics. For things to be able to be accessed with little to no restrictions or medical reports they should be not just reversible; but reversible without any significant side effects
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LAKISYLVANIA
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2021, 03:05:02 PM »

Obviously gay conversion therapy.

Transgender operations i'm mixed on. Usually it's banned for minors, but not for adults, which i'm fine with. I could support decreasing the age to 16 which I didn't vote for since 16 year olds and 17 year olds are minors too. Decreasing the age further is something i lean towards a no, except for the cases where it seems pretty much obvious, and where the result might turn out to be better, but i'm not an expert on it.
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