Denmark plans to limit 'non-western' residents in disadvantaged areas to avoid parallel societies

[Former President tack50]

Hey guys remember, the Democrats are the equivalent of a far-right party in any Nordic country and even Bernie Sanders is to the right of almost every party there!

I said this before yesterday, but people who say things like that look at politics from a mostly, if not exclusively economic angle

[Former President tack50]

https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1318115587424505856?s=20

This is a great thread about France that someone more sober than I am right now should translate.

I mean, perhaps I am understading it wrong cause of Google translate messing up stuff, but that Twitter thread if anything would support anti-immigration conclusions and measures like this one (to the extent that they are reasonable in France, which has much bigger problems on that area than Denmark)

Indeed that is the same conclusion the author of said threat reaches! He claims desegregation is effectively impossible, but that therefore (non-Western) immigration should be severely restricted.

[Zinneke]

https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1318115587424505856?s=20

This is a great thread about France that someone more sober than I am right now should translate.

I mean, perhaps I am understading it wrong cause of Google translate messing up stuff, but that Twitter thread if anything would support anti-immigration conclusions and measures like this one (to the extent that they are reasonable in France, which has much bigger problems on that area than Denmark)

Indeed that is the same conclusion the author of said threat reaches! He claims desegregation is effectively impossible, but that therefore (non-Western) immigration should be severely restricted.

Yes, how can you expect migrants to integrate if you ghettoise them.

The issue is also people like Tender who use it as a way to justify their armchair racism. Personally I think weirdos like him should also have quotas in rural areas.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

I don't understand it completely, but I think we must prevent 21st century ghetto's and indeed immigrants flocking together, as that seems to be the hotbed for radical extremism, so indeed building social housing in better advantaged areas seems to be a great policy.

Parallel societies inside a country is really starting to get an issue. Look no further to what happened in Molenbeek. Far-right politicians have organized "islam safari's" inside that city.

[ingemann]

https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1318115587424505856?s=20

This is a great thread about France that someone more sober than I am right now should translate.

I mean, perhaps I am understading it wrong cause of Google translate messing up stuff, but that Twitter thread if anything would support anti-immigration conclusions and measures like this one (to the extent that they are reasonable in France, which has much bigger problems on that area than Denmark)

Indeed that is the same conclusion the author of said threat reaches! He claims desegregation is effectively impossible, but that therefore (non-Western) immigration should be severely restricted.

Yes, how can you expect migrants to integrate if you ghettoise them.

The issue is also people like Tender who use it as a way to justify their armchair racism. Personally I think weirdos like him should also have quotas in rural areas.

I must admit I really don't get the whole criticize countries for "ghettoise" people and then a  country embrace policies which work against this, the exact same people begin to scream "racism, racism, racism". It's almost like these accusation is only a political tactic to attack ones opponents. 

[Zinneke]

I don't understand it completely, but I think we must prevent 21st century ghetto's and indeed immigrants flocking together, as that seems to be the hotbed for radical extremism, so indeed building social housing in better advantaged areas seems to be a great policy.

Parallel societies inside a country is really starting to get an issue. Look no further to what happened in Molenbeek. Far-right politicians have organized "islam safari's" inside that city.

Well Molenbeek is a good example of a potentially more constructive and less "limit xyz ethnic group" style policy. The idea is to pump it so much with culture than the sons and daughters of white flight that went into the periphery eventually want to live there, and in turn want to improve public services there, and so on. Unfortunately covid means we won't see Molenbeek shoot up the way it was supposed to but anyway, it also opens the can of worms that is gentrification and whether its good or bad to price out the poor from "their" district.

[Hnv1]

Excellent policy

[CumbrianLefty]

Hey guys remember, the Democrats are the equivalent of a far-right party in any Nordic country and even Bernie Sanders is to the right of almost every party there!

I said this before yesterday, but people who say things like that look at politics from a mostly, if not exclusively economic angle

Is that as true as it was even on an economic level these days?

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

This seems like a case of treating the symptoms, rather than the cause.

Are these relocation programs going to be paired with adult education courses, job training programs, language and integration courses, etc.? Will the residents of these neighborhoods be moved to neighborhoods that have these services, or are we going to plop them down elsewhere and then be surprised when they still don't have the ability to find jobs and struggle to learn the language? Will they be compensated if they are forced to move further away from their workplace, or given help if their new, permitted residence costs more?

How quickly will all of these things be taken care of, or are we just creating yet another arbitrary and unpredictable bureaucratic maze that further just makes life needlessly complicated and further contributes to a sense of precarity that only hinders integration even more?

This will weaken part of the problem with parallel societies, sure, but I fail to see how this constructively solves the fundamental integration problem.

[ingemann]

This seems like a case of treating the symptoms, rather than the cause.

Are these relocation programs going to be paired with adult education courses, job training programs, language and integration courses, etc.? Will the residents of these neighborhoods be moved to neighborhoods that have these services, or are we going to plop them down elsewhere and then be surprised when they still don't have the ability to find jobs and struggle to learn the language? Will they be compensated if they are forced to move further away from their workplace, or given help if their new, permitted residence costs more?

We're not UK, as a general rule if you come up with a carrot policy and ask whether we have done that, the answer will next to always be...

YES WE HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT AND IS STILL DOING IT IF IT SHOW ANY SUCCESS.

How quickly will all of these things be taken care of, or are we just creating yet another arbitrary and unpredictable bureaucratic maze that further just makes life needlessly complicated and further contributes to a sense of precarity that only hinders integration even more?

Unless you work as a administrative worker for a housing cooperative, a municipality or a mayor property corpotation, you're unlikely to everf discover this. I was offered a apartment in one of these areas a year ago and took the offer (but turned it down as I found a cheaper and better apartment elsewhere) and all the administrative work it took for me was a fiove page questionnaire which I filled out on a homepage.

This will weaken part of the problem with parallel societies, sure, but I fail to see how this constructively solves the fundamental integration problem.

I agree, the problem with intergration can only be dealt with by limiting immigration of groups who set up parallel societies. As such we avoid restarting the process every generation.

[Old Man Willow]

The Danes know what's up.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The general approach of the present Danish government on these issues is basically the social democratic state multiculturalism that the Blair government was very fond of, but on steroids. If you adhere to a liberal multiculturalism of some form then you aren't going to like that much and will find a lot to criticise (as was the case here!), but the depictions in the international liberal press are... not honest.

Can you elaborate on this (by PM if you don't want to clutter up the thread)? If I've misjudged what's going on here I'd like to understand how.

[mileslunn]

Not a legal expert, but wouldn't this possibly run afoul with EU human rights laws as I believe any type of discrimination is against EU law.  Yes some like Hungary ignore rulings against them but pretty sure Denmark would follow a negative ruling from ECJ.

On immigration my understanding, is member states are free to set rules for countries outside single market but if they are blatantly racist could run into trouble.  Things like special rules for those with ancestry from country I think are fine, but immigration laws that give preference to Western over non-Western not.  Off course whites in general have easier time in that about 50% of whites globally are EU citizens thus have automatic right to live and work in Denmark while only around 2% of non-whites are. But at least in theory a white person from United States should face same rules as a person from India wishing to move to Denmark.

So be interesting if this gets them in trouble with EU who has very strong anti-discrimination rules.  Off course if they can give a good reason or show how it is trying to achieve some other EU goal, ECJ may allow it.

[AtorBoltox]

It seems like the Guardian is deliberately misrepresenting this bill

[Don Vito Corleone]

The general approach of the present Danish government on these issues is basically the social democratic state multiculturalism that the Blair government was very fond of, but on steroids. If you adhere to a liberal multiculturalism of some form then you aren't going to like that much and will find a lot to criticise (as was the case here!), but the depictions in the international liberal press are... not honest.

Can you elaborate on this (by PM if you don't want to clutter up the thread)? If I've misjudged what's going on here I'd like to understand how.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Goddamn illiberal authoritarians popping up again. Danish succs prove, once again, that they're absolutely cursed.

[Former President tack50]

Not a legal expert, but wouldn't this possibly run afoul with EU human rights laws as I believe any type of discrimination is against EU law.  Yes some like Hungary ignore rulings against them but pretty sure Denmark would follow a negative ruling from ECJ.

On immigration my understanding, is member states are free to set rules for countries outside single market but if they are blatantly racist could run into trouble.  Things like special rules for those with ancestry from country I think are fine, but immigration laws that give preference to Western over non-Western not.  Off course whites in general have easier time in that about 50% of whites globally are EU citizens thus have automatic right to live and work in Denmark while only around 2% of non-whites are. But at least in theory a white person from United States should face same rules as a person from India wishing to move to Denmark.

So be interesting if this gets them in trouble with EU who has very strong anti-discrimination rules.  Off course if they can give a good reason or show how it is trying to achieve some other EU goal, ECJ may allow it.

Regarding this, while it doesn't apply to immigration per se, at least in terms of citizenship Spain's laws aren't equal for everyone, with Latin Americans (and a handful of other countries like Portugal, Andorra and Equatorial Guinea) being given priority and advantages over everyone else, most notably a much smaller naturalization time (2 years instead of 10 iirc) and dual citizenship being allowed (banned for all other nationalities)

This is even enshrined in the Spanish Constitution and to my knowledge no one has complained

[ingemann]

Goddamn illiberal authoritarians popping up again. Danish succs prove, once again, that they're absolutely cursed.

The Danish Social Democrats had two choice, they could either become social liberal or neoliberal sellouts like most other European Social Democrats and die, or they could represent their voters and their interests and survive. The incredible thing about the Danish Social Democrats is not the road they have taken, but the unwillingness of so many other Social Democratic parties to stay true to their voters views and interests, even through it’s vastly more popular position to take.

[ingemann]

Not a legal expert, but wouldn't this possibly run afoul with EU human rights laws as I believe any type of discrimination is against EU law.  Yes some like Hungary ignore rulings against them but pretty sure Denmark would follow a negative ruling from ECJ.

On immigration my understanding, is member states are free to set rules for countries outside single market but if they are blatantly racist could run into trouble.  Things like special rules for those with ancestry from country I think are fine, but immigration laws that give preference to Western over non-Western not.  Off course whites in general have easier time in that about 50% of whites globally are EU citizens thus have automatic right to live and work in Denmark while only around 2% of non-whites are. But at least in theory a white person from United States should face same rules as a person from India wishing to move to Denmark.

So be interesting if this gets them in trouble with EU who has very strong anti-discrimination rules.  Off course if they can give a good reason or show how it is trying to achieve some other EU goal, ECJ may allow it.

You’re right that racist policies are against the EU’s human right laws. But at the same time this policy doesn’t break those laws.

... those two facts should tell you something about this policy, and I going to cut it out in cardboard letter. This is not a racist policy, it doesn’t break any treaties Denmark have signed or any EU laws.

[ingemann]

Not a legal expert, but wouldn't this possibly run afoul with EU human rights laws as I believe any type of discrimination is against EU law.  Yes some like Hungary ignore rulings against them but pretty sure Denmark would follow a negative ruling from ECJ.

On immigration my understanding, is member states are free to set rules for countries outside single market but if they are blatantly racist could run into trouble.  Things like special rules for those with ancestry from country I think are fine, but immigration laws that give preference to Western over non-Western not.  Off course whites in general have easier time in that about 50% of whites globally are EU citizens thus have automatic right to live and work in Denmark while only around 2% of non-whites are. But at least in theory a white person from United States should face same rules as a person from India wishing to move to Denmark.

So be interesting if this gets them in trouble with EU who has very strong anti-discrimination rules.  Off course if they can give a good reason or show how it is trying to achieve some other EU goal, ECJ may allow it.

Regarding this, while it doesn't apply to immigration per se, at least in terms of citizenship Spain's laws aren't equal for everyone, with Latin Americans (and a handful of other countries like Portugal, Andorra and Equatorial Guinea) being given priority and advantages over everyone else, most notably a much smaller naturalization time (2 years instead of 10 iirc) and dual citizenship being allowed (banned for all other nationalities)

This is even enshrined in the Spanish Constitution and to my knowledge no one has complained

The point is that singling out people for better or worse treatment based on citizenship is not racism, while doing so based on race, ethnicity or religion is racism. If Spain allowed only allowed White Cubans to immigrate, while banning Black Cuban it would run afoul of the ECHR, while favoring migrants based on country of origin is fully inside the Human Rights.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Not a legal expert, but wouldn't this possibly run afoul with EU human rights laws as I believe any type of discrimination is against EU law.  Yes some like Hungary ignore rulings against them but pretty sure Denmark would follow a negative ruling from ECJ.

European Human Rights Law is mostly the preserve of the ECHR which is not an EU institution but a Council of Europe one (so, e.g., the United Kingdom is still a member). In any event I would tend to think it fairly unlikely that this policy would be considered discriminatory, the test for which is pretty severe.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The general approach of the present Danish government on these issues is basically the social democratic state multiculturalism that the Blair government was very fond of, but on steroids. If you adhere to a liberal multiculturalism of some form then you aren't going to like that much and will find a lot to criticise (as was the case here!), but the depictions in the international liberal press are... not honest.

Can you elaborate on this (by PM if you don't want to clutter up the thread)? If I've misjudged what's going on here I'd like to understand how.

You still wouldn't like it because there's enough of a small-a anarchist about you that 'We Will Force You To Be Free ' will instinctively give you the creeps, but that's basically what it is. It isn't really French-style assimilation because the actual cultural practices are not the issue and assumed to be none of the business of the State,* it's the observation that immigrant districts have certain social problems, that these social problems could cause security problems down the line, that this is not desirable and that the State should step in and use a mixture of carrot and stick to incorporate the people in question into the social mainstream. Danes are, of course, used to extensive State involvement/interference (choose your own adventure) in their daily lives from pre-school upwards, though Danish planning culture is a bit more late 19th century (local government being a huge deal: it has just about the most powerful municipalities in Europe, you'd be amazed at some of the stuff they're allowed to do) than fully Modernist. That's the mentality here.

_{*Actually it probably works out as the exact opposite of French integration policies in practice.}

[EastAnglianLefty]

What's good to read on the nuts and bolts of this proposal? I can understand Danish tolerably well, fwiw.

[ingemann]

What's good to read on the nuts and bolts of this proposal? I can understand Danish tolerably well, fwiw.

https://im.dk/nyheder/nyhedsarkiv/2021/mar/nyt-udspil-skal-forebygge-parallelsamfund

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]