The Catholic Church issues another statement about gay marriage
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 11:17:23 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  The Catholic Church issues another statement about gay marriage
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3
Author Topic: The Catholic Church issues another statement about gay marriage  (Read 1972 times)
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,218
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2021, 11:56:18 AM »
« edited: March 16, 2021, 12:00:29 PM by Peak Harry »

In the future it will be way more than 10%.

It will surely rise, but it will be decades before its especially different from now. Let's day the number of Catholics in Africa rises by 3% per year (optimistic, since that's higher than Africa's current growth rate), and the number outside Africa only rises at 1% per year (pessimistic, as that's lower than the world's growth rate). It would he the 2060s before Africa makes up 20% of Catholics and the 2090s before it makes up 30%.

You'd need it to be something like 5% (meaning by the end of this decade, they're baptizing 10,000,000+ new Catholics in Africa every year and even more every year that passes) to get a significant change, and even then it's the 2060s before that makes up a majority. And that level of Evangelization in Africa likely means that the continent becomes very Westernized, which would likely hasten LGBT acceptance there. And if they're evangelizing that much in Africa, they're probably doing it in Asia too, so the 1% number would be way too low.

TLDR - Yes, the Catholic Church is likely to become more African over the course of the 21st century, but the math just isn't there to significantly change the makeup of Catholics without something drastic and unforeseen.

 There's also lots of Catholics outside of Africa who are conservative on this issue.  Not to mention that the type of Catholic who supports gay marriage is often just culturally Catholic and not very invested in the future of the church.

Yes, there are plenty of Catholics in America who go along with the official church position on this issue, but you're really living in a bubble if you think those who disagree aren't invested in the future of the Church. It would take me two hands to count the number of LGBT Catholics I know (or am acquainted with) in Mississippi alone (including a married lesbian couple with kids). I don't live in a random sample obviously, but I think most Catholics in the developed world would at least be fine with changing to allow LGBT equality, if not already actively supporting it.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,248


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2021, 12:07:41 PM »



Something about Wisconsin seems to produce a disproportionate number of extreme-right priests (and sometimes bishops). That priest who was briefly a rightist cause célebrè during the election for preaching that it was a mortal sin to be a Democrat was also a Wisconsinite, as--at first--was Cardinal Burke. It's one reason I would never consider working or studying in Milwaukee or Madison whatever their other merits as communities.

Although Robert John Cornell, one of only two Catholic priests to have ever served in Congress, was a Wisconsin Democrat.

Also the bolded statement - BRTDesque much?  Tongue

I do have a similar attitude towards religious like-mindedness that BRTD has towards political like-mindedness, yes. Although it's not nearly as strong, hence why I'm currently happily living in one of the least religious areas of the United States.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2021, 12:43:32 PM »

Africa is an Episcopalian, Pentecostal and Catholic battleground  regurgitating the 'culture wars' for a different audience. There's a reason for this, as it's the last ground for potential religious growth.

Ghana, the most recent flashpoint is the most concerning as it's the Catholic Church leading the anti-LGBT charge encouraging police raids, whipping up the press and linking COVID threats to the community.



Announcements like yesterday's don't help.
Logged
Farmlands
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,181
Portugal


Political Matrix
E: 0.77, S: -0.14

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2021, 07:34:38 PM »

Embarrassing. Why make a strong statement that we all know will eventually be reversed? They're just setting up a future pope with the headache of admitting they got something else wrong in 2021.

This is about as informed and objective a take on where the Catholic Church is heading as are the radtrad fantasies about all younger Catholics being based and tradpilled Capitol-stormers who will turn it into an aesthetically-Baroque variant of Asatru by 2050.

We both know where the world is heading on this issue, or in many cases already is. Maybe the Catholic Church will stand by this declaration in 2041 (though I predict they'll have partially walked it back by then), but it's delusional to think they'll still be digging in in 2121.

People are growing up in an LGBTQ-equal world and just aren't going to see a reason to keep such a hardline rule. This includes future priests growing up today.

Ah, hubris.  Society has never changed uniformly in a single direction, and I doubt it ever will. In 1921 the prevailing view was that by now we'd have experienced a century of peace thanks to the leadership of the League of Nations. Frankly, the utopia you imagine 2121 will be for LGBTQ-equality is just as plausible as a world in which most countries have recriminalized being LGBTQ.

The more direct analogy for 1921 would be women's equality, and the optimists were right. But feel free to bump this thread in 2041 (I'm sure we'll both still be posting here) or 2121 (if we're still alive) with the actual results.

Excuse me, but from what alternate universe do you come from in which three of our last six Presidents were female and men and women are equally paid? That said, I'm not predicting a regression, only that regression is as likely as progression.  Also, while it is more likely than not that I'll still be alive in 2041, and in any case, I might decide that I have better things to do in my retirement than post here. (I can at least hope I do.)

His point was that gender equality has only been improving, the pay gap keeps reducing, etc. It has been the exact same thing with LGBT rights, with very few exceptions I can remember. Speaking of Africa, Angola just recently decriminalised same-sex relations. History has kept proving that regression is definitely not as likely as progression.
Logged
Chunk Yogurt for President!
CELTICEMPIRE
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,235
Georgia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2021, 07:36:29 PM »

 There's also lots of Catholics outside of Africa who are conservative on this issue.  Not to mention that the type of Catholic who supports gay marriage is often just culturally Catholic and not very invested in the future of the church.

Yes, there are plenty of Catholics in America who go along with the official church position on this issue, but you're really living in a bubble if you think those who disagree aren't invested in the future of the Church. It would take me two hands to count the number of LGBT Catholics I know (or am acquainted with) in Mississippi alone (including a married lesbian couple with kids). I don't live in a random sample obviously, but I think most Catholics in the developed world would at least be fine with changing to allow LGBT equality, if not already actively supporting it.

Maybe your friends care, but if they teach their kids that the church is wrong, their kids will eventually see remaining Catholic as pointless.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2021, 10:45:28 AM »
« Edited: March 17, 2021, 10:52:16 AM by True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자) »

Embarrassing. Why make a strong statement that we all know will eventually be reversed? They're just setting up a future pope with the headache of admitting they got something else wrong in 2021.

This is about as informed and objective a take on where the Catholic Church is heading as are the radtrad fantasies about all younger Catholics being based and tradpilled Capitol-stormers who will turn it into an aesthetically-Baroque variant of Asatru by 2050.

We both know where the world is heading on this issue, or in many cases already is. Maybe the Catholic Church will stand by this declaration in 2041 (though I predict they'll have partially walked it back by then), but it's delusional to think they'll still be digging in in 2121.

People are growing up in an LGBTQ-equal world and just aren't going to see a reason to keep such a hardline rule. This includes future priests growing up today.

Ah, hubris.  Society has never changed uniformly in a single direction, and I doubt it ever will. In 1921 the prevailing view was that by now we'd have experienced a century of peace thanks to the leadership of the League of Nations. Frankly, the utopia you imagine 2121 will be for LGBTQ-equality is just as plausible as a world in which most countries have recriminalized being LGBTQ.

The more direct analogy for 1921 would be women's equality, and the optimists were right. But feel free to bump this thread in 2041 (I'm sure we'll both still be posting here) or 2121 (if we're still alive) with the actual results.

Excuse me, but from what alternate universe do you come from in which three of our last six Presidents were female and men and women are equally paid? That said, I'm not predicting a regression, only that regression is as likely as progression.  Also, while it is more likely than not that I'll still be alive in 2041, and in any case, I might decide that I have better things to do in my retirement than post here. (I can at least hope I do.)

His point was that gender equality has only been improving, the pay gap keeps reducing, etc. It has been the exact same thing with LGBT rights, with very few exceptions I can remember. Speaking of Africa, Angola just recently decriminalised same-sex relations. History has kept proving that regression is definitely not as likely as progression.

That has been the recent trend, with some notable exceptions such as the Armenian Genocide, the Holocaust, the rise of Wahabism, and whatever what's going on in Xinjiang ends up being called.

The idea that history goes in one particular predictable direction is the sort of sloppy thinking that led SCOTUS to believe that all it was doing was giving things a push in Roe. Surely by the 21st century, abortion would be universally acceptable?

Or if you prefer to consider in the alternative, how about "Three generations of imbiciles are enough"?  Eugenics was at the time of that now infamous statement seen as the height of progressive policy.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,248


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2021, 11:06:01 AM »

I read the responsum again and the thing that strikes me about it this time is the extraordinarily hard and fast distinction it makes between individuals and relationships. I think that this is a conceptual and theological flaw for reasons that, in themselves, have nothing to do with sex, and I hope either a future CDF, a future Pope, or maybe even this CDF or this Pope, identify and redress it at some point.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2021, 11:57:19 AM »

It's oddly cathartic in my own ongoing (yes) deconstruction. It's remarkably difficult to accept completely that the Church doesn't like you as you are, has no time for your testimony and is happy to set you apart but the closed wording here is helpfully finite, more so than anything it's put out in two decades.
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2021, 03:09:21 PM »

Maybe your friends care, but if they teach their kids that the church is wrong, their kids will eventually see remaining Catholic as pointless.
This has to be the dumbest take yet. From abortion to female priests to gay marriage to trans people to the death penalty to climate change to economic programs, over 95% of lay Catholics teach their children that at least one major teaching of the church is wrong. Female priests has something like 80% of lay American Catholics disagreeing. The idea that LGBT issues play an especial place as some thing that parents must teach their children is wrong, in line with church teachings, or the church will die is Christian conservative nonsense. LGBT people are the only group in the whole country becoming more religious - they are four times more Christian today than in 2000, while every other group is 10-30% less Christian.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2021, 03:31:43 PM »

Maybe your friends care, but if they teach their kids that the church is wrong, their kids will eventually see remaining Catholic as pointless.
This has to be the dumbest take yet. From abortion to female priests to gay marriage to trans people to the death penalty to climate change to economic programs, over 95% of lay Catholics teach their children that at least one major teaching of the church is wrong. Female priests has something like 80% of lay American Catholics disagreeing. The idea that LGBT issues play an especial place as some thing that parents must teach their children is wrong, in line with church teachings, or the church will die is Christian conservative nonsense. LGBT people are the only group in the whole country becoming more religious - they are four times more Christian today than in 2000, while every other group is 10-30% less Christian.

Source?
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2021, 06:24:31 PM »

I am familiar with broad polling from a textbook I read on the subject. The media’s covered it as little as possible, but the most notable poll available online was the shift from 2013-2015:
“More LGB Americans consider themselves Christian than ever before. In a new Pew Research Center report, 48 percent of LGB Americans identify as Christian, up from 42 percent in 2013. The statistic contrasts the study’s finding of overall decline of Christianity, from 78.4 percent of Americans identifying as Christian, down to 70.6 percent.”
https://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2015/05/12/report-half-lgb-americans-identify-christian

It’s not particularly beneficial to any narrative, so they’ve not done very many polls on the subject. And VERY few public ones.
Logged
Chunk Yogurt for President!
CELTICEMPIRE
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,235
Georgia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2021, 07:21:29 PM »

Maybe your friends care, but if they teach their kids that the church is wrong, their kids will eventually see remaining Catholic as pointless.
This has to be the dumbest take yet. From abortion to female priests to gay marriage to trans people to the death penalty to climate change to economic programs, over 95% of lay Catholics teach their children that at least one major teaching of the church is wrong. Female priests has something like 80% of lay American Catholics disagreeing. The idea that LGBT issues play an especial place as some thing that parents must teach their children is wrong, in line with church teachings, or the church will die is Christian conservative nonsense. LGBT people are the only group in the whole country becoming more religious - they are four times more Christian today than in 2000, while every other group is 10-30% less Christian.

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.
Logged
Kingpoleon
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,144
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2021, 05:07:59 AM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.
Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.
Logged
Battista Minola 1616
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,280
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -5.55, S: -1.57

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2021, 07:40:56 AM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.

Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.

Define "cultural Catholic".
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2021, 09:32:43 AM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.

Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.

Define "cultural Catholic".

West Central Scotland.

When the same percentage still call themselves Catholic in the census but chapels are closing, and are quarter full on high holidays with an aging congregation pushing over 80, never mind over 65, priests recruited from Poland and almost no youth activity.

That's cultural Catholicism. It's identity without performance or performance without place.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,248


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2021, 09:47:03 AM »
« Edited: March 19, 2021, 10:02:04 AM by Away, haul away, we'll haul away, Joe! »

No offense, Andrew, but if you and Celticempire are both speaking disparagingly of a style of Catholic belief/practice/identity/whatever, then that's a good sign to me that it's doing something right. (joking, mostly) (Apologies also if you're not speaking disparagingly and I'm just misreading your tone, which is a definite possibility.)
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2021, 11:21:14 AM »

No offense, Andrew, but if you and Celticempire are both speaking disparagingly of a style of Catholic belief/practice/identity/whatever, then that's a good sign to me that it's doing something right. (joking, mostly) (Apologies also if you're not speaking disparagingly and I'm just misreading your tone, which is a definite possibility.)

I don't really know what you're trying to say.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,248


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2021, 11:34:42 AM »

No offense, Andrew, but if you and Celticempire are both speaking disparagingly of a style of Catholic belief/practice/identity/whatever, then that's a good sign to me that it's doing something right. (joking, mostly) (Apologies also if you're not speaking disparagingly and I'm just misreading your tone, which is a definite possibility.)

I don't really know what you're trying to say.

I'm making a joke that it seems like you don't get. It's not in very good taste so I'm happy to drop it. Sorry.

Speaking more seriously, it says a lot that "cultural Catholic" is used as a smear against people who chafe against Church teaching on stuff like this, but not against people like Bill Barr (or Antonin Scalia before him!) who openly, admittedly dissent on stuff like the death penalty. (Yes, kids, Scalia publicly admitted that he flat-out disagreed with the death penalty stuff in Evangelium Vitate.) There is a deeply ingrained "don't punch right" sensibility among (white, Anglo) committed Catholics that seems like it's getting more impossible to dislodge rather than less the longer Pope Francis stays in office.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,833


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2021, 12:07:49 PM »

No offense, Andrew, but if you and Celticempire are both speaking disparagingly of a style of Catholic belief/practice/identity/whatever, then that's a good sign to me that it's doing something right. (joking, mostly) (Apologies also if you're not speaking disparagingly and I'm just misreading your tone, which is a definite possibility.)

I don't really know what you're trying to say.

I'm making a joke that it seems like you don't get. It's not in very good taste so I'm happy to drop it. Sorry.

Speaking more seriously, it says a lot that "cultural Catholic" is used as a smear against people who chafe against Church teaching on stuff like this, but not against people like Bill Barr (or Antonin Scalia before him!) who openly, admittedly dissent on stuff like the death penalty. (Yes, kids, Scalia publicly admitted that he flat-out disagreed with the death penalty stuff in Evangelium Vitate.) There is a deeply ingrained "don't punch right" sensibility among (white, Anglo) committed Catholics that seems like it's getting more impossible to dislodge rather than less the longer Pope Francis stays in office.

Oh.

Obviously have a different experience of Catholic identity being as it was the walls, floor and ceiling of my life from 5 to 18 with almost no notional secularity as it was the entirity of the identity of half my home town, my family, all my friends and schooling. Fast forward a few decades and it's gone. Not just for me, but for most who have came after.

My point is, Catholicism is cultural and communal or it is nothing and the Church has completely forgotten this. It moved from not actually taking a hard and fast position or issuing Vatican diktats on a lot of social-moral issues to making it pretty much the only time lay Catholics hear from it.

So here's to the cultural Catholics by default. It's all they have saving them from obsolescence in huge swathes of the west.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,248


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2021, 12:11:36 PM »

No offense, Andrew, but if you and Celticempire are both speaking disparagingly of a style of Catholic belief/practice/identity/whatever, then that's a good sign to me that it's doing something right. (joking, mostly) (Apologies also if you're not speaking disparagingly and I'm just misreading your tone, which is a definite possibility.)

I don't really know what you're trying to say.

I'm making a joke that it seems like you don't get. It's not in very good taste so I'm happy to drop it. Sorry.

Speaking more seriously, it says a lot that "cultural Catholic" is used as a smear against people who chafe against Church teaching on stuff like this, but not against people like Bill Barr (or Antonin Scalia before him!) who openly, admittedly dissent on stuff like the death penalty. (Yes, kids, Scalia publicly admitted that he flat-out disagreed with the death penalty stuff in Evangelium Vitate.) There is a deeply ingrained "don't punch right" sensibility among (white, Anglo) committed Catholics that seems like it's getting more impossible to dislodge rather than less the longer Pope Francis stays in office.

Oh.

Obviously have a different experience of Catholic identity being as it was the walls, floor and ceiling of my life from 5 to 18 with almost no notional secularity as it was the entirity of the identity of half my home town, my family, all my friends and schooling. Fast forward a few decades and it's gone. Not just for me, but for most who have came after.

My point is, Catholicism is cultural and communal or it is nothing and the Church has completely forgotten this. It moved from not actually taking a hard and fast position or issuing Vatican diktats on a lot of social-moral issues to making it pretty much the only time lay Catholics hear from it.

So here's to the cultural Catholics by default. It's all they have saving them from obsolescence in huge swathes of the west.

Some of my best friends (including some of my best church friends!) are self-described, proud cultural Catholics. (The woman I'm considering moving in with--not like that, she's a lesbian--calls Biden "Fish Fry Joe" because of how strongly she identifies with his style of Northeastern Irish-American firehouse/union hall Catholicism. This is the same woman who describes herself as "Side C for Celibate-but-not-for-moral-reasons".) Hell, a good 70% of the reason I converted was that I wanted to move back towards the same cultural environment as my aunts, uncles, and grandparents once I got sick of American "church shopping" culture. Of course, that environment wasn't really what I found when I got there, for the reasons you're articulating here.
Logged
Tintrlvr
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,283


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2021, 12:35:27 PM »

I am familiar with broad polling from a textbook I read on the subject. The media’s covered it as little as possible, but the most notable poll available online was the shift from 2013-2015:
“More LGB Americans consider themselves Christian than ever before. In a new Pew Research Center report, 48 percent of LGB Americans identify as Christian, up from 42 percent in 2013. The statistic contrasts the study’s finding of overall decline of Christianity, from 78.4 percent of Americans identifying as Christian, down to 70.6 percent.”
https://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2015/05/12/report-half-lgb-americans-identify-christian

It’s not particularly beneficial to any narrative, so they’ve not done very many polls on the subject. And VERY few public ones.

42% to 48% is not at all a big change, especially for a small demographic where there can be expected to be a lot of statistical noise in a sample size that is inevitably going to be pretty small in a national survey.

It might also be worth considering that it perhaps reflects more Christians identifying as LGB rather than the other way around...
Logged
bore
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,274
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2021, 03:36:29 PM »
« Edited: March 19, 2021, 03:50:53 PM by bore »

I am familiar with broad polling from a textbook I read on the subject. The media’s covered it as little as possible, but the most notable poll available online was the shift from 2013-2015:
“More LGB Americans consider themselves Christian than ever before. In a new Pew Research Center report, 48 percent of LGB Americans identify as Christian, up from 42 percent in 2013. The statistic contrasts the study’s finding of overall decline of Christianity, from 78.4 percent of Americans identifying as Christian, down to 70.6 percent.”
https://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2015/05/12/report-half-lgb-americans-identify-christian

It’s not particularly beneficial to any narrative, so they’ve not done very many polls on the subject. And VERY few public ones.

42% to 48% is not at all a big change, especially for a small demographic where there can be expected to be a lot of statistical noise in a sample size that is inevitably going to be pretty small in a national survey.

It might also be worth considering that it perhaps reflects more Christians identifying as LGB rather than the other way around...

The subsample size is 1604 which is decent enough, and a 6 point rise in the context of a 8 point decline in the population as a whole probably does signify something but yeah I'd be wary of hanging too much on one poll, especially one which has to navigate both identifying religiosity and sexuality.

A better approach is probably to think about this from first principles, to ask whether it makes sense that a greater or the same (which is functionally an increase given the secular decline in belief) proportion of people who are identifying as gay are also identifying as christian compared to 10 or 20 years ago. And when you phrase it in that way it becomes not just plausible but overwhelmingly likely. If you came out in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s you were doing so in a culture which treated you terrible mostly for religious reasons (you could maybe argue that a lot of this was a theological excuse for an instinctive hatred, but what the real motivation of the bigot is doesn't actually matter- in the public sphere you are judged on the words that you say) and only a few tiny sects dissented from this consensus. In that context it is hardly surprising that few openly gay people identified with christianity, any more than its surprising that so many Jewish brits turned their back on Labour during Corbyn's leadership. If you treat a group of people with contempt they will respond in kind.

But of course there is nothing inherent about being gay that means you are more or less likely to believe in God, or that can not be reconciled with Christianity, which just as a matter of sociological fact is almost infinitely malleable. In a society without homophobia you would expect the proportion of gay theists to be similar to the proportion of gay atheists. Of course we don't live in that society, the news story that this thread is about testifies to that, but it is undeniable that we are light years away from the situation in 1984, 1994 or even 2004. Christian Churches as a whole are not close to being there yet, but the direction of travel is unmistakable, there are now many affirming denominations and most that aren't are in retreat, largely restricting their comments to whinging about religious freedom.

Because of this, because homophobia in the public sphere is year by year becoming uncoupled from christianity qua christianity, its easier for people to hold onto and explore their own faith when they come out rather than have to jettison it because its so hostile to them, and so it makes sense to see a gradual increase in religious identification of LGB people to meet the levels we see dropping in the population as a whole.
Logged
Paul Weller
HenryWallaceVP
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,217
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2021, 11:51:42 PM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.

Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.

Define "cultural Catholic".

West Central Scotland.

When the same percentage still call themselves Catholic in the census but chapels are closing, and are quarter full on high holidays with an aging congregation pushing over 80, never mind over 65, priests recruited from Poland and almost no youth activity.

That's cultural Catholicism. It's identity without performance or performance without place.

Catholicism in Scotland? And in the Lowlands? I was under the impression that the Reformation had done its work there and there were practically no Catholics left (except maybe some Highland clans), just Presbyterians and Episcopalians.
Logged
Battista Minola 1616
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,280
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -5.55, S: -1.57

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2021, 06:14:06 AM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.

Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.

Define "cultural Catholic".

West Central Scotland.

When the same percentage still call themselves Catholic in the census but chapels are closing, and are quarter full on high holidays with an aging congregation pushing over 80, never mind over 65, priests recruited from Poland and almost no youth activity.

That's cultural Catholicism. It's identity without performance or performance without place.

Catholicism in Scotland? And in the Lowlands? I was under the impression that the Reformation had done its work there and there were practically no Catholics left (except maybe some Highland clans), just Presbyterians and Episcopalians.

1. Wrong thread for your memes.

2. In case you are not ironic: mostly Irish immigration since the 19th century and Italian, Lithuanian, Polish immigration since the 20th century, especially in the Glasgow area (so West Central Scotland).
Logged
Alcibiades
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,851
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2021, 08:26:10 AM »

There are lots of cultural Catholics, and this has been going on long before the issue of gay rights was being debated.

Yes - the majority of Catholics worldwide are cultural Catholics. It is becoming a semi ethnic religion, like Judaism, which has more cultural implications than religious ones.

Define "cultural Catholic".

West Central Scotland.

When the same percentage still call themselves Catholic in the census but chapels are closing, and are quarter full on high holidays with an aging congregation pushing over 80, never mind over 65, priests recruited from Poland and almost no youth activity.

That's cultural Catholicism. It's identity without performance or performance without place.

Catholicism in Scotland? And in the Lowlands? I was under the impression that the Reformation had done its work there and there were practically no Catholics left (except maybe some Highland clans), just Presbyterians and Episcopalians.

The Glasgow area is/was pretty infamous for its sectarian divisions between Protestants and Catholics (largely descended from the huge wave of Irish immigrants).
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.076 seconds with 12 queries.