DOUBLE DISSOLUTION

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Not happening

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

For the love of god, is this really being dredged up again.

It doesn't work.

It took 8 months for us to end up in the same damn place, with one exception, the combination of Liberals and Labor had captured a bunch of ex-RPP moderates.

I am fine with existing in a four party or five party system with the Federalists as one of those parties. But I will not let another fing party be sacrificed at the alter of this top down attempt to restructure the party landscape.

The Federalist Party does not have, nor will it ever have, a dissolution procedure. If people want to leave the party, they are free to do so of their own choice. No one will force them. Not you MB, not Sestak, not Labor. NO ONE!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Leinad's Plan B option is not workable. It is two sets of extreme scenarios both of which have failed this game in the past. Replacing one with the other out of desperation is a recipe for disaster.

As long as you have discord, as long as you have DMs and as long as you have people on the right and people on the left, THEY WILL ALWAYS COALESCE.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Not happening

Sad how you can crush dreams with just two simple words.

When your dream can crush mine with the iron boot of the government fiat, IT DOESNT HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST! Registration is a free choice that shouldn't be forced by someone else.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I conceded to it last time, gave it a chance. Sacrificed so much that I cared so deeply about in this game and it failed. Why should I give up my freedom of association so you guys can learn the same lesson the hard way?

You want to change the party landscape, its called the registration thread. USE it! Grow some balls, ditch labor and its affiliates. But don't send the jackboots and the tanks to force me to change mine.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

1. Create a poll with a bad idea
2. Give a rosy and imbalanced description of its "past use" that no one "remembers"
3. Link it on discord to create a steamroller effect.
4. Profit

Tale as old as time.

You forgot one little thing:

I never forget.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We should have like five randomly assigned teams. No ideology, no friendships. Survival of the fittest.

So you have invented a deneuralizer?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We should have like five randomly assigned teams. No ideology, no friendships. Survival of the fittest.

SPOILER ALERT: Ted is putting himself on a team with all of Adam, MB, Peri, YT, and Doof. RIGGED

This joke is very informative. Even if you let all the problems aside and assumed arbitrarily redrawing the battle lines could be done, no one in their right mind would trust anyone on this list to actually stop.

That is exactly what transpired last time. The right stood down and the JCP machine took the game to the cleaners under a different name.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Personally I'm not a fan that the mere concept is vetoed and shot down every time it comes up, particularly since its been nine years since the last dissolution (with the player base so different only a handful of people experienced its specific dynamics) and yet the immediate assumption is that it would have the exact same results and we shouldn't even bother trying.

A moot point since it's just not happening, I know, but it won't be long before we reach a decade with the exact same two big parties.

Because Lumine it is the height of folly to presume that you can force a change via gov't fiat to something that is natural and organic. People chose these parties for a reason, people keep choosing these party's for a reason. Of course it would be the same result all over again, but faster, because as a someone on the right, my interests lie with collaborating with other people on the right to achieve our mutual objectives. The same goes for most people on the left.

As soon as single conservative slipped through or even a center righty, the left would unify behind a single party with a machine organization. Likewise it would happen for the right as soon the left or center left was seen to have an upper hand.

This happened  for the left in 2011 with the UDL after the RPP won the Presidency, it happened with the right in 2012 after 3 landslide Liberal elections and prompted the creation of the Federalist Party.

Do you honestly think the partisan factors that drove this in the tea party era, have lessened in the era of Trump? They are worse!

So no, I have no interest in a suicide pact with Labor, because people are sick of labor always winning. If people are sick of labor always winging, VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE. The reason labor keeps winning arguably is the same reason why this would FAIL.

SMASH THE TEABAGGERS TRUMPISTS!!!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

1. Create a poll with a bad idea

Nobody told me to make that poll, for the record. Nor did I link it on discord (although in full transparency it incidentally was). Nor did I tell MB to make this thread. Nor do I think dissolution is workable or (at least on it's own) even desirable. I just think it's an interesting discussion and it was kinda shot down in the offsite recruitment thread.

Also I said:

I suspect most of us will have a more nuanced answer than fits the question I'm attempting to ask. It's meant more as a jumping off point to discuss the pros and cons of "machine politics," in general. Perhaps we could also discuss "how to make the game better," although ideally that's a logically follow-up.

I don't really know how I could've made a more clear disclaimer

I wasn't talking about you or your poll. Your poll was fine except for the lack of a set of more nuanced poll choices, because fun fact, people don't read the fine print.

People also tend to bandwagon effect on these things.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also, pre-dissolution, wasn't there an anti-JCP left at the very least which could create divides after that.

JCP's origins were a lot messier than Labor's because they initially ran 2 JCP/RPP tickets before becoming dominant. Furthermore, this forum is probably much more polarized now than it was back then due to IRL trends, which favors two massive dupolies.

There were two mass anti-JCP left parties during the period between 2008 and 2012. These were the SDP and the UDL, while both contained some people that would be key to Labor later on in its formation, UDL also had a bunch of centrist types that were kind of without a political home on the center left and did not like JCP very much.

Furthermore, it is worth remembering also that the JCP did at various points absorb much of this internally and this happened from early 2009 with the SDP-JCP merger to December 2010 when UDL formed, and from mid 2011 after UDL was shut out of At-large until the dissolution. One of the key things that killed the UDL was the RPP/Populares ticket winning February 2011. Once that happened, bgwah essentially had the means to "attaint" the UDL as traitors and cuck it into submission for costing them their birthright, the White House. Also Antonio famously did not recruit and saw recruitment as corrupt, though this was a fringe view even by that period's standards. The UDL did create enough of a split to allow the RPP to reach number 1 in membership a couple of times in late 2010 and early 2011, which was my crowning moment because we went from dead to 1 in a year.

Aside from the mass anti-JCP left, you had meme left and radical type parties floating around including HorseTakesUpPainting, Leipist National Front, Cultural Marxist Party, Chartists and so forth, with the last one being The Silly Party.

A lot of people did not like bgwah on the left, ranging from Gustaf on the center left to Xahar on the far left. Gustaf as a mod recalled bgwah's trolling days and thus was not fond of him for that reason. Bgwah and the JCP spent a great deal of time tormenting Xahar in the Pacific. Xahar had been in the SDP but he did not follow the rest of the members (Marokai and MaxQue especially) into the JCPs ranks after the merger.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also, pre-dissolution, wasn't there an anti-JCP left at the very least which could create divides after that.

If you know your immediate post-dissolution history, then the best analog would be:

RPP: Federalist
JCP: Liberal
UDL: Labor (failed)
POP: Right-leaning I guess; not sure how to categorize them

Obviously some nuance still applies, but like every breakaway duopoly faction before or since (with one notable exception), UDL got to a relatively large size (15-20% of the game) and then slowly collapsed on itself.

While most in the game today don't know it or can't imagine such given contemporary happenings, Labor was the first and only example of a party actually breaking the historical mold of the game (i.e. dominance of the game by a left-center/liberal faction with periodic successes for right-of-center movements). Labor not only established its dominance as a left/socialist entity, but waged a hemispherical civil war with the prevailing liberal factions and successfully defeated them.

UDL is not a perfect analog because it had people like Benconstine and HappyWarrior. But of course Labor had Mr. X for a spell too. That said I agree.

Populares drew heavily from libertarians and libertarian leaning conservatives, but also had a couple of rino types in their ranks as well that they recruited. Also drew heavily from hamilton's sock drawer early on. They initially were called ARC ATlasian Reform Coalition and their angle was "RPP is abusing you libertarians, time to revolt against the RPP Populists". They used the fact that the RPP Senate delegation had gone from PiT and SPC to Jedi, myself and RowanBrandon to make this stick. Its four founders were Hamilton, Libertas, Einzige and Ghost White (under a different account at the time).

After a time it came under Jbrase and then Dallasfan's control. The last time I "knowingly talked to Hamilton" (excluding talking to Napoleon) until 2015/2016, was in October 2010 on AIM, ten months after his ban. He was livid at the direction of the Populares and vowed to destroy them and then once he destroyed them he was going to come after us (The RPP). As Napoleon, he absorbed a good bit of the Populares into the JCP, double dissolution took care of the RPP for him and he inherited the earth as the Liberal Party hegemon.

Very rare I get to say this, but Thank You, Adam Griffin!!!.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Very rare I get to say this, but Thank You, Adam Griffin!!!.

For posting that, or for beating Hamilton?

[/quote]

Hamilton obviously.