Update: Division in SBC over sexual allegations policy, status of female Bishops, politics
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  Update: Division in SBC over sexual allegations policy, status of female Bishops, politics
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Author Topic: Update: Division in SBC over sexual allegations policy, status of female Bishops, politics  (Read 998 times)
PSOL
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« on: February 20, 2021, 11:41:02 AM »
« edited: June 13, 2021, 03:38:27 PM by PSOL »

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-donald-trump-baptist-southern-baptist-convention-sexual-abuse-by-clergy-1b4bce88b58067f341e6e8eef259307f
Quote
— Some Black pastors have left the SBC and others are voicing their dismay over pronouncements by the SBC’s six seminary presidents — all of them white — restricting how the subject of systemic racism can be taught at their schools.

— Several prominent SBC conservatives, citing church doctrine that bars women from being pastors, have questioned why the denomination’s North American Mission Board has supported a few churches where women hold titles such as children’s pastor and teaching pastor. The board says it seeks to persuade such churches to change those titles.

— The leadership continues to draw criticism from victims of church-related sexual abuse over promises made in 2019 to combat that problem. Activists say inquiries related to sex abuse should be handled by independent experts, not by the SBC’s credentials committee.
I can understand following biblical law, but I fail to see how obstructing justice and not recognizing structural racism is something taught in the Bible.

I suppose seeing their church stagnate is a better option then opening ones doors to those wanting to be with Christ.
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vitoNova
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2021, 04:17:17 PM »

Weird ass religion.

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2021, 04:37:24 PM »

Wasn't the SBC moving in a (relatively) more sociopolitically moderate or agnostic direction as recently as two or three years ago?
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2021, 04:41:32 PM »

Wasn't the SBC moving in a (relatively) more sociopolitically moderate or agnostic direction as recently as two or three years ago?

I think there was quite a big internal struggle. Relative moderates like Russell Moore were certainly winning some victories, but they did face blowback. I haven’t been following any of this recently, so I’m not sure what the outcome of all that was.
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RFayette
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2021, 05:03:24 PM »

Wasn't the SBC moving in a (relatively) more sociopolitically moderate or agnostic direction as recently as two or three years ago?

I think there was quite a big internal struggle. Relative moderates like Russell Moore were certainly winning some victories, but they did face blowback. I haven’t been following any of this recently, so I’m not sure what the outcome of all that was.

Both sides in that dispute firmly agreed that homosexuality was a sin, however.  There never really was significant internal division among Southern Baptist leadership about these issues. 
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2021, 05:04:41 PM »

Wasn't the SBC moving in a (relatively) more sociopolitically moderate or agnostic direction as recently as two or three years ago?

I think there was quite a big internal struggle. Relative moderates like Russell Moore were certainly winning some victories, but they did face blowback. I haven’t been following any of this recently, so I’m not sure what the outcome of all that was.

Both sides in that dispute firmly agreed that homosexuality was a sin, however.  There never really was significant internal division among Southern Baptist leadership about these issues. 

I wasn’t referring to whether homosexuality was a sin, but broader issues which the article in OP touches on.
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If my soul was made of stone
discovolante
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 03:47:59 PM »

Just as I was getting comfy and deradicalized by having lived among all the pride flag-displaying churches in downtown Baltimore and getting to know lots of tolerant folk here, I'm back to writing my pissed-off little manifesto about how queer people should shut out cishet faiths and aggressively embrace our pagan past to achieve religious liberation. Some of the responses in this thread are quite worrying regarding how accepted I can feel here, to be frank.
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afleitch
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 04:17:32 PM »

Just as I was getting comfy and deradicalized by having lived among all the pride flag-displaying churches in downtown Baltimore and getting to know lots of tolerant folk here, I'm back to writing my pissed-off little manifesto about how queer people should shut out cishet faiths and aggressively embrace our pagan past to achieve religious liberation. Some of the responses in this thread are quite worrying regarding how accepted I can feel here, to be frank.

Oh the language and descriptors used here and in a few other topics on this board concerning LGBT+ issues is downright disgraceful.
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If my soul was made of stone
discovolante
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 04:21:01 PM »

Just as I was getting comfy and deradicalized by having lived among all the pride flag-displaying churches in downtown Baltimore and getting to know lots of tolerant folk here, I'm back to writing my pissed-off little manifesto about how queer people should shut out cishet faiths and aggressively embrace our pagan past to achieve religious liberation. Some of the responses in this thread are quite worrying regarding how accepted I can feel here, to be frank.

Oh the language and descriptors used here and in a few other topics on this board concerning LGBT+ issues is downright disgraceful.

Maybe one day I'll post said writing of mine here just to watch people seethe, if I can summon the spirit of Bellona enough in my heart to soldier on with bloody primal rage past my deeply-ingrained self-consciousness about having anyone disagree with my convictions ever.
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PSOL
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 04:25:03 PM »

A major problem with the SBC is that it’s insular conservative structure, along with bloc voting and political connections, still keeps their membership numbers very stable compared to other denominations. Still, the present stagnation and hostility to even black membership means that it can’t get any growth aside from birth rates, but that isn’t doable for them to get above replacement level either.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 04:25:25 PM »

We'll take them. Smile
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Donerail
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2021, 04:57:27 PM »

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
"The most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o'clock on Sunday."
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2021, 07:38:31 PM »

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
"The most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o'clock on Sunday."

Where you attend church is often a good clue to your ethnic or regional background as well among whites. If you attend a Lutheran or Reformed church rather than say a Methodist or Presbyterian congregation, that's a very good indication you have German/Scandinavian or Dutch ancestry even if you are Americanized in every other respect.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2021, 10:09:32 PM »

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
"The most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o'clock on Sunday."

Where you attend church is often a good clue to your ethnic or regional background as well among whites. If you attend a Lutheran or Reformed church rather than say a Methodist or Presbyterian congregation, that's a very good indication you have German/Scandinavian or Dutch ancestry even if you are Americanized in every other respect.

It's more an indication of the ethnicity of the original white settlers than anything else, hence the relatively large number of Lutheran churches in my part of South Carolina.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2021, 06:51:53 PM »

Just a reminder that they don’t expel pastors who molested teens, got them pregnant, and then forced them to get an abortion.
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The Houstonian
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2021, 11:48:34 AM »

Just as I was getting comfy and deradicalized by having lived among all the pride flag-displaying churches in downtown Baltimore and getting to know lots of tolerant folk here, I'm back to writing my pissed-off little manifesto about how queer people should shut out cishet faiths and aggressively embrace our pagan past to achieve religious liberation. Some of the responses in this thread are quite worrying regarding how accepted I can feel here, to be frank.

Paganism is fake news.
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PSOL
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2021, 04:05:18 PM »

Read the whole article. I’ll try and cut out the major points I see.

On Leaked letters of a now resigned head of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission
Quote
In the documents, Moore accused certain leaders of caricaturing sexual abuse victims as “at best, mentally disturbed and, at worst, as sexually-promiscuous sinners.”

Issues of Church structure getting in the way of rule of a uniform, centralized policy
Quote
“The Southern Baptist Convention was not, and to a large degree is still not, set up today to do the kinds of things that Russell Moore wanted to see us doing,” Stone said.

The current times causing division
Quote
How Southern Baptists feel about these issues will likely determine who is elected SBC president. Stone is part of the Conservative Baptist Network, which accuses Russell Moore, current president J.D. Greear and others of contributing to a liberal drift.

Another leading candidate, Al Mohler, has been supportive of sex abuse victims but angered some Southern Baptists for endorsing Donald Trump last year and for signing a statement, in his capacity as president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, denouncing critical race theory.

Meanwhile, Ed Litton, an Alabama pastor, is supported by Fred Luter, the only Black pastor ever to be denomination president. The two are among the co-signers of a statement by a multiethnic group of Southern Baptists asserting that systemic racial injustice is a reality.

The issue with reforms is that we’ve seen how such things played out with the recent splits among mainline Protestant groups, and how fast rule changes in Church structure and policy leads to complete collapse or splintering. However, sexual assault and these awful coverups is never worth staying for. These denominations seeking change should make their case and, if the SBC won’t take harder measures against independent investigations in the meeting, they should be the ones to leave in unison.
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RI
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2021, 05:41:27 PM »

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
"The most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o'clock on Sunday."

Funnily enough, mass is almost certainly the most diverse time of my week. My parish is pretty large and has thriving Spanish, Vietnamese, Filipino, and Nigerian communities. Whites are a clear minority there.
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afleitch
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2021, 05:48:57 PM »

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.
"The most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o'clock on Sunday."

Funnily enough, mass is almost certainly the most diverse time of my week. My parish is pretty large and has thriving Spanish, Vietnamese, Filipino, and Nigerian communities. Whites are a clear minority there.

Diversity is not just about race of course.
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satsuma
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 07:14:52 AM »
« Edited: June 20, 2021, 11:57:29 AM by satsuma »

Weird ass religion.

So wait, they have separate churches for blacks and whites, but it's still considered the same denomination?   Like lol.


That's the congregational polity. Its all voluntary now that segregation doesn't have force of law. If a Baptist believer can choose to join any Baptist church, and a Baptist church can choose to affiliate with any Baptist convention, it's no surprise that so few would want to join some group where they're in the perpetual minority (and if they chose to at some point, might be uneasy if the relevant conflicts come up). Likewise, a convention could expel a church or a church could expel a member, though that's less common than just voluntarily leaving a group you tend to disagree with.

Edit: Baptists are less likely (especially compared to Catholics / Orthodox) to hope that all Christians will be united organizationally. Their voluntary cooperation makes it impossible. Congregations exist to provide necessary connection and guidance to believers, but denominations are always discussed as a cooperation, not a hierarchy.
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